Knot Tying and the Aims of Scouting

[Its Me 10]

 

How does tying a knot as a Tenderfoot support the aims of scouting?

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Our program delivery vehicle is God's Great Outdoors. Knot tying is a skill which is an element of our program delivery.

 

You should have seen me trying to learn to tie a clove hitch as a Tenderfoot. It was the ugliest knot in the universe. Even so, my fin motor skills and hand-eye coordination improved as I went through the basic knots. My doggedness to get it done improved too.

 

I guess I could say it can support the Fitness aim a bit, and for the sake of the discipline of learning, the Character aim.

[Gonzo1 10]

It'sMe

I would say knot tying has to do with character development as knot tying ability helps someone be self reliant and be prepared.

[Eamonn 61]

"How does tying a knot as a Tenderfoot support the aims of scouting? "

We the adults need to take time every now and then to read what we promise the Lads who join Scouting.

All that good stuff which can be found at the start of the Boy Scout Handbook.

All the requirements needed to become a First Class Scout are the key to ensuring that we can deliver what we promise.

I really do feel that when these skills are not covered and are not learned by the Scout, we (The adults) are short changing the Scout.

He ends up not having the skills that are needed to "Play the game".

The Aims of Scouting can be found in the BSA Vision Statement:

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

It seems to me that even the way this is worded, that it speaks of the "Game" first:

"Scouting will continue to

Offer young people responsible fun and adventure" Then it goes on to say about the other good stuff:

" Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership".

Knot tying might not seem like a lot of fun to some people.(I happen to enjoy messing around with rope and line!!)But the Scouts who go on to join bigger and better things do need these skills.

The Boy Scouts who join Sea Scouting, have a blast out on the water. The fun and adventure, kicks into high gear. When a Boy Scout who joins has these skills already, we don't have to spend as much time going over this stuff.

All the time the Scouts are having a blast on the water, somehow, someway they are still learning and still practicing citizenship, service, and leadership.

Learning to tie knots as a Tenderfoot is kinda like learning to open the garage door, before you take the car out.

Ea.

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

Knot having been a Scout, I'm working on learning the skills in parallel to (or slightly ahead of)the rate my son is learning his skills.

I have to say that for me the knots are a part of learning that there is detail in the knots and regardless of whether someone shows you how or if you try to figure it out from a book, the knot just isn't correct without doing what ever detail is in the knot that is the secret of how that particular knot does what it is supposed to.

A valuable life lesson that sometimes things just have to be done the way they are intended to be done to get the desired result.

 

Yes you can usually tie some gobbledygook mess into a rope and make it work, maybe... but would you really trust such a thing with your life?

 

It is also a way of showing that when you do tie that "must be reliable" knot in an emergency or life preserving situation that you know what it is that you are doing and can be trusted to perform the rest of the procedures with the same attention to detail. IMHO.(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Eagledad 2780]

We dont talk about it much, but scouting is basically building confidence to be brave. Just talk to any boy who has just set up a tent in the dark or rain for the first time and compare them to a boy who has not. There is a clear difference in confidence and maturity between the two boys.

 

Well knot tying is the same. First of all, how do you teach lashings without first teaching the knots? You have to start somewhere. Second, watch the smile grow on the face of a boy who just learned a knot. His confidence and desire to learn another is 10 fold. I remember very well teaching one of dyslexic Webelos how to tie a knot. I did not know it at the time, but he was terrified all his friends would laugh at him because he would not be able to tie a knot. His dad had to explain to me later why his son cried after learning the square knot. An Eagle told me once that he knew he was going to be and Eagle after I asked him to teach a tenderfoot knots. Up to the point, he was terrible at knots, yet the SM had the conifience to ask him train a new scout gave him the confidence to realize he could do anything he wanted.

 

I always challenged the adults in my Scoutmaster Specific class as to why we teach knots in a bungee cord/Velcro culture. We do it because it build character and makes builders from dreamers.

 

To adults, the knot is a simple tool for simple needs. To a boy, the knot is a complex machine with unlimited uses. To a savvy Scout leader, the knot is a magic wand that has the ability to change wondering boys into men character.

 

I love this scouting stuff..

 

Barry

 

[Its Me 10]

 

I see it (as some have mentioned) as an instrument for character building but I see it little different. The teaching of the knot by a youth leader is where the character development comes in. The teacher must have the skills, patients and preparedness to bring his student to the desired proficiency.

 

The knots: the two half and taught line are simple two & three turn loops around a rope. This is something a boy can readily master in anywhere from an 60 - 90 minutes. The skill level is low. The function is tactile. The results are immediate. Perfect for a young boy to teach a younger boy. The learning-boy is convinced that these knots are essential for camping so the whole time he is learning, he is imagining all the times he will use the knot in the outdoors. His interest is held, even if the teaching is awkward. The skill is simple and thus the teacher can remain proficient. The student is eager. A perfect recipe for all to succeed.

 

Thus if your scouts are not the ones teaching knots then your boys are missing out on a built in character development program.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Knots and Scouting go together like baseball and applepie, like peaches and cream, like peanut butter and jelly, like Latin/Greek and Classic Education...

 

Latin and Greek are foundations of a classic curriculum, why? Does anyone speak Latin anymore or classic Greek? Why then is it still taught? Why would anyone teach a dead language? Well, as my first year Latin teacher Father Daniel Stempora would say, "Mental Gymnastics, Gentlemen, Mental Gymnastics", after memorizing a list of Latin verbs and nouns and using them, you begin to beleive there isnt anything you cant learn.

 

Sometimes the knowledge that one can learn is more important than the skill learned

 

Knots have the cachet of the outdoors, of being a woodsman that does not have to rely on bungee cords or velcro, because you know how to work with ropes, "like the old ones". Of course learning the knots is not enough. They have to be employed, regularly, at meetings, on outings, anywhere until the are second nature.

 

The Mission of the Boy Scouts of America, in shorthand is to teach young people to be good people of morals. If we dont supply fun, then the youth wont be around long enough to learn anything. It's fun to learn a new skill, even more to be able to use it, often.

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Gonzo1 10]

Sometimes the scout (or former scout, particularly and Eagle Scout) is expected to "perform" at a higher than average leverl. for example, about a year and a half ago, my church had a campout. i couldn't attend due to Army Reserve duty, but Mrs. gonzo took the kids, had fun and got wet when it rained. Nearly everyone in the group got wet, except the Eagle Scout who happened to be on the trip, slept in an improvised shelter and made fire from wet wood.

 

As I understand it, he kept everyone fed too.

 

The kot tying is important as are other basic skills like lighting fire by flint and steel, batteries, knots, cooking, etc.

 

You just gotta love this stuff.

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, learning any skill builds confidence and ability. In Scouting, we focus on outdoor skills, eh?

 

Da process of learning a skill teaches us about community. How to ask for help when we don't know. How to be humble and trust others. How to listen. How to work hard. How to struggle. How to fail. How to try again. How to succeed. How to really learn rather than "fake it." What happens when we "fake it" and then need to use the skill later. How we can contribute to the group by knowing a skill well. How we pass along a skill to others. How we have patience. How we teach. How we keep learning.

 

All that "tied up" in a simple knot, eh?

 

O' course, to be best the skills we teach have practical usefulness and be used regularly. A taut-line hitch ceases to have the same meaning and effect if it's not needed to set up a shelter. Some other knot or skill may become a better choice for our goals.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gunny2862 11]

But we needed tautlines to keep our Camp property tents up this most recent camp session. We had to provide our own line and stakes to reinforce the stability of the tents and to aid in the tautness of the material during those first couple of days of rain. Otherwise our personal gear would have been soaked. We didn't take our own tentage for camp.

I was really glad I wasn't the only one who knew how to tie those tautline knots.

[SSScout 1616]

Okay, here's your rope. Now, hold it on the table like this. No, make YOURS look like mine. Good. Now, you take the left end and,... no, the OTHER left end... There ya go... put it OVER... OVER the right end, and pull it under , like so... Hey, how does yours look like mine? yep. yep. Real Good! now see how the left end comes back to itself and the right end goes UNDER... and back... on its own piece... yeah! just like that!! sort of...

And you call that.. what's your name again? yeah that's a Jamie knot!!...

 

Now let's start again and see if we can do it really neat this time...You're right, it is like the shoe knot...

 

Teaching a knot joins more than two pieces of rope.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Awhile back I was at the company picnic and a VOlleyball tournament was underway. The players would constantly fall into the net or hit the ball into the net and the net was very unsteady, wavering around etc and the games were being stopped for an inordinately long time while the net was fixed.

 

I wandered over and saw they were just wrapping the guideline around the stake and then it would pull off and the net would sag etc. After a few more times, I went over and tied a taut line hitch. The big obnoxious guy (every picnic has one) leans over my shoulder so I could smell his beer and brat drenched breath and harrumps that he has never seen one of those knots ever work. I smiled back.

 

The games went on, the net was still sagging when hit by the ball, and would fall over when run into by players, but repair was much faster with the taut line hitch. After the games were over, the big guy came over and told me he had never seen that kind of knot work before until today. I told him probably because today it was tied by an Eagle scout. Pre 9-11 I always had my pcketknife with me. It was the subject of much derision angled towards me, mostly in fun. Then came the evening when a bottle of wine needed to be opened and my knife had the only corkscrew around. The next day a box needed to be opened and I fairly had to keep a log of who had my knife and who would get it next. I stopped carring the knife after 9-11 because with the amount of travel I do, I left quite a few at NSA counters before I stopped carrying them.

[packsaddle 753]

I will proselytize just a bit:

Knot-tying is a profound intellectual activity. Beyond hand-mind coordination is also the strategy and logic of the process, designed to most efficiently accomplish a specialized goal - namely to securely attach a flexible object to something else. The process is mathematically precise and the proof of success is in the resulting knot...that either works the way it should or it doesn't.

 

Beyond the rote memory exercise of remembering all the steps in each knot, there can also be a fundamental understanding of why it works so well for that application, possibly an understanding of how or why it was developed as well. This basic awareness of the strategy of knot construction is the greatest value because the strategy can then be applied to new situations and the knots can be modified in a logical and effective manner to best achieve those new goals, to solve those new problems.

Knot-tying, in this sense, is a metaphor for all of life. And as such, it serves scouting at nearly all levels.

IMHO(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[kittle 10]

I haven't taken the time to read all posts, but wanted to add my point on this.

 

Tying knots gives my son a sense of accomplishment, he is good at knot tying. When a knot needs to be tied, they know my son can usually tie it.

 

He has been in scouts for 3 years and hasn't yet made 1st class. Even though he is having trouble with a couple of requirements, knot tying makes him not feel like he isn't as far behind.