LongHaul 10 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 In another thread as they say the topic of how honest and dishonest people would answer a question came up. This reminded me of a brain teaser I heard in high school. I've since heard it in many variations this is one of them. You are fleaing down a path ahead of a forest fire when you come to a fork in the path. Three men are standing there, one in front of each path guarding the way , one at the end of the single path you are comming along. The man in front of you says "One of these paths leads to death, one leads to safety. One of these guards will always lie one will always tell the truth. You may ask one question of one of these guards recieving one answer. Assuming that you wish to live what would your question be? LongHaul Link to post Share on other sites
kb6jra 10 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 "Are we safe here"? No would be the true answer, and you know it's true, the other would say yes which would be false. I either got it right or I really blew it... When you ask the question, what if the guard was like the "corsican" on Princess Bride. "If you ask me is it safe, and I answer no, then you'll know I'm lying, however if I answer yes, then you'll think I'm telling the truth, but if I answer maybe..." I love that movie. Link to post Share on other sites
LongHaul 10 Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 kb6jra, You may be able to decide who is telling the truth and who is lying but that would not tell you which trail leads to safety. Don't assume that the truthfull guard is standing in the path which leads to safety. LongHaul Link to post Share on other sites
SWScouter 34 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 The question to ask either guard is, "Will the other guard say their path leads to safety?" If the guard says yes, then that is the path to safety, otherwise it is the path to certain doom. Link to post Share on other sites
LongHaul 10 Posted February 22, 2007 Author Share Posted February 22, 2007 Need clarification. The question to ask either guard is, "Will the other guard say their path leads to safety?" If the guard says yes, then that is the path to safety, otherwise it is the path to certain doom. When you say "their path" are you referring to their in terms of the person you are asking or is their ment to indicate the other guards path? LongHaul Link to post Share on other sites
SSScout 1615 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Bogus, dude... Why would anyone hire a guard you KNOW is dishonest?? Still, assuming that the two guards both know the safe way out, and one always tells the truth and the other is honesty impaired, I would ask the LEFT guard " Dude! When the fire gets here, Which way will the RIGHT guard dude tell YOU to go to escape those righteous flames?" If the LEFT guard is the truthful dude, and he says "Right", then the RIGHT guard is the lier and therefore the left trail is the safe way out. If the LEFT guard is the lier, then by saying "right" he means that the truthful guard would say "left". Either way, the left trail is the safe way out. And vice versa. (verse visah?) But then we still don't know how the fire started. Was it a Scout Patrol that never read thru the G2SS? Or a bear that decided to jump several steps of evolution and discovered fire? And what about that first guy we met? The intro dude? Can we really trust HIM? Maybe HE'S the lier dude? and BOTH of the guards are truthful? or Liers? My head hurts. Link to post Share on other sites
Aquila calva 10 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Too complicated for me...but Google helps! The path to enlightenment lies behind one of two doors. In front of each door stands a guard who knows which door leads to enlightenment, but one of the guards always lies and the other one always tells the truth. In your search for enlightenment, you are allowed to ask one guard only one question that can be answered "yes" or "no", but unfortunately, you do not know which guard is the liar. You will be banished to the dungeon of logical illiteracy if you fail in your quest. What question should you ask to find the path to enlightenment? Answer: If you ask a guard directly "Are you guarding the path to enlightenment?", and the answer is "no", he could be guarding the path to enlightenment and be lying about it, or he could be telling the truth and the path to enlightenment is behind the other door. The question that you ask has to involve both guards at the same time: "Would the other guard say that you are guarding the path to enlightenment?" When we ask a guard this question, there are 4 cases: 1. The liar is guarding the path to enlightenment. He answers "no" because the truthful guard would say "yes". 2. The liar is not guarding the path to enlightenment: He answers "yes" because the truthful guard would say "no". 3. The truth teller is guarding the path to enlightenment. He answers "no" because the other guard (liar) would say "no". 4. The truth teller is not guarding the path to enlightenment. He answers "yes" because the other guard (liar) would say "yes". So, if a guard answers "no", he is guarding the path to enlightenment. If he answers "yes", the path to enlightenment is the other door. Notice that even though we have learned which is the path to enlightenment, we still don't know which guard is the liar. To find out who is the liar we would have to ask a question like: "Would the other guard say that you always tell the truth?" A reply of "no" means you are talking to the truth teller, a reply of "yes" means you are talking to the liar. George Boole (1815-1864) was an English mathematician and logician who devised a system for representing logical symbolic relationships now known as Boolean algebra. The logical relationships, called Boolean expressions, use the logical operators AND, OR, and NOT between entities. These expressions have application in computer circuit design, information retrieval strategies, and logic problems such as this. Tables that list all the outcomes of a logical expression, like our four cases above, are known as "Truth Tables". http://www.scientificpsychic.com/mind/door1.html Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 "Inconceivable!" Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Trev, trully yours is a dizzying intellect although I do not think that word means what you think it does... And I know something you do not... Link to post Share on other sites
LongHaul 10 Posted February 22, 2007 Author Share Posted February 22, 2007 Aquila calva has the answer, though there are variations in wording. "Which path would the other guard tell me leads to safety." works in my senario becasue I didn't have a "yes or no" stipulation. Either way you do the opposite of what you are told. The honest guard will indicate the path to death becasue that is what the dishonest guard would do. The dishonest guard will indicate the path to death because he is dishonest. Does the fact that Aquila calva chose to Google the answer rather than work it out say anything to anyone else? So many of my scouts will by new computer or video games and then seek "Cheats" so they can beat it. They don't want to solve a problem they want the answers. Which at times can be a good thing but sometimes getting there is part of the fun. They don't want to learn to play guitar they want to be able to play the guitar and give up after a few lessons because it takes to long to master. Is the pace we set today to fast? Instant gratification gets in the way of discovery some times. LongHaul Link to post Share on other sites
Trevorum 24 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Link to post Share on other sites
SWScouter 34 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I wasn't very clear was I; how inconceivable. Assuming all guards are male, my question is, "Will the other guard say his path leads to safety?" If the guard says yes, then the queried guard's path is the path to safety, otherwise it is the path to certain doom. Note that the way I stated the question is opposite of Acquila Calva's and the answers are switched too. Anybody seen any large rodents? SWScouter Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 R-O-U-S's? I don't think they exissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to post Share on other sites
OneHour 11 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 As {Trev} told you, it would be absolutely, totally, and in all other ways inconceivable. No one in Guilder knows what we've done, and no one in {Scouter.com} could have gotten {the answer} so fast! Look, I don't mean to be rude but this is not as easy as it looks, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't distract me. Beautiful isn't it? It took {LongHaul} half a lifetime to {ask} it. I'm sure you've discovered {his} deep and abiding interest in pain. Presently I'm writing the definitive work on the subject, so I want you to be totally honest with me on how the {logic problem} makes you feel. This being our first try, {he has} use the lowest setting {of logic}.(This message has been edited by OneHour) Link to post Share on other sites
Aquila calva 10 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 This was an open-book test, wasn't it? What do we do when faced with a modern-day Gordian knot? Slash it with the Google sword! It may be considered as acceptable as it was 2300 years ago with a real sword. The one important question to ask these days is "Who has the cell phone with the internet link?" Have fun scouting! Link to post Share on other sites
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