If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like?

[Eamonn]

"If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like? "

When I joined the Boy Scouts as it was then in England in the 1960's as a Wolf Cub (the program not the rank.) As far as I know things hadn't changed much since Wolf Cubs had started in 1916. About this time the Chief Scout's Advance Party started meeting (1964)

The Advance Party Report was published in 1966. Sweeping changes were made.The Boy Scouts Association became The Scout Association. Uniforms were changed, advancement requirements were changed, the Oath and Law was changed.

This was all changing about the time I became a Scout.

In the 1990's the program was looked at again and once again changes were made.

 

Over the years Scouts and Scouting has in different countries under gone a lot of change.

While I agree with those who state all the good and fine stuff about: Citizenship,Character building and fitness. I however think that for any program to work it needs to appeal to the people we serve. I have yet to meet a Scout who joined Scouting to have his character developed. Kids join to have fun, participate in adventurous activities and be challenged.

When Scouting For Boys hit the streets in 1908 and the The Scout newspaper for boys came along they captured the imagination of the young Lads in England at that time.

It didn't hurt that BP was a national hero.

It didn't hurt that England was a very powerful nation with the British Empire. BP is reported as saying that it is better to do good than be good.

Maybe? Over time what was once seen as doing good has changed? We no longer think that teaching people to read the Bible and play cricket is enough, we don't look at the working class as lazy good for nothings.

Still some things have not changed.

We still have willing volunteers who care enough about kids that they are willing to give up their time and some of their hard earned cash to work with kids.

We still have kids who want to spend time together having fun, participating in adventures and being challenged.

Sure we have found new ways of being entertained and we like to think our communications are better than they have ever been.

So "If BP had started scouting in 2006, what would it look like? "

I think it would be a game with a purpose.

The game would be all about fun, adventure and challenges. The purpose would be found in the Vision and Mission statement of the BSA.

Over time we know that things will change. Changes are inevitable, uniforms will change and maybe go away? Maybe the Scouts we have today will be the last to enjoy sitting around a blazing campfire? Maybe all of the sections will go coed?

But as long as we have caring adults who are willing to spend time with our youth somethings will remain the same.

Eamonn.

 

[Kudu]

Brian,

 

If you read only one book about Scouting, I would suggest Tim Jeal's Baden-Powell. As far as I know it is the only book about Scouting with a critical analysis of both the gushingly pro-BSA books such as Hillcourt's Baden-Powell: Two Lives of a Hero, and the off-base leftist critiques of Scouting such as Rosenthal's The Character Factory.

 

Jeal devotes an entire chapter to the popular-culture aspect of Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys and writes in part that the publisher "Pearson's formula had been copied from Tid Bits and involved interspersing uplifting material with curious facts and entertaining anecdotes. To appeal to the semi-literate public created by compulsory education reading matter had to be easy to understand. Everett suggested that the Peason's Weekly potpourri approach would also be ideal for a youthful readership, so Baden-Powell divided Scouting for Boys into 10 chapters and 28 'Camp Fire Yarns'. This apparent rag-bag of unrelated topics was in reality a cunning blend of entertainment, moral exhortation, practical advice and escapism. A boy could easily skip what did not interest him and pass on to what did [baden-Powell, pages 390-391]."

 

Scouting for Boys incorporated all of the popular fantasy genres of the time, from boys' adventure comics to "black entertainment" murder mysteries. The 21st century media equivalent to the printed page of Scouting for Boys would be the video tube from television to the Internet to video games.

 

Given all of the extraordinary advances in couch-potato technologies, the more interesting question for me is

 

"If B-P introduced his Traditional brand of Scouting in the United States in 2006, how would it differ from the BSA?"

 

This is a question that a number of American Scouters have already addressed in their efforts to establish alternative Scouting associations :-)

 

Baden-Powell's Scouting differs from BSA Scouting in a number of different areas, including:

 

Uniforms: (B-P = Outdoor, BSA = Indoor);

 

Wood Badge: (B-P = Outdoor Patrol Leadership Skills specific to the Scout Section, BSA = Indoor Corporate Leadership Skills dumbed down to be useful to Cub Scout Yellow Blouses);

 

Troop Leadership: (B-P = Patrol Leader [Patrol] Based & Appointed, BSA = SPL [Troop] Based & Elected);

 

Ideals: (BSA added "Reverent" to the B-P Scout Law, "Morally Straight" to the B-P Scout Promise, and a conservative religious test for membership); and

 

Progressive Training: (examined below):

 

PROGRESSIVE TRAINING

 

1. EXPEDITIONS: The most striking difference between Baden-Powell's "Progressive Training" and BSA "Advancement" is the traditional "final" test for each "Award" (what the BSA calls "Ranks"). This is a series of progressively more challenging "Expeditions" required for advancement in the Scout program. With the exception of the very last remaining vestige in the BSA core program (the Second Class five mile hike), these adventures have been dumbed out of the BSA core advancement program altogether. Even the wimpy three mile backpacking requirement for BSA Camping Merit Badge has been demoted to a mere option, so it is now possible for a BSA Parlour Scout to earn Eagle without ever once having entered the woods with pack on his back!

 

a) First Class: In Baden-Powell's Scouting what was once known in the BSA as the "First Class Journey" still remains an adult-free 24-hour backpacking trip of at least 15 miles through rugged territory. One group, the Baden-Powell Scout Association (BPSA-USA) has hedged its bets concerning safety by doubling the maximum number of two Second Class Scouts in the Journey to a total of four, and adding an adult "shadow party" which follows these Scouts at an appropriate distance without interacting with them in any way.

 

b) Star: Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Star," the "Scout Cord," requires a similar adult-free two day journey to a location with which the Scouts are not familiar. The usual method is to drop the First Class Scouts off in the dark at a location marked on their maps, with a second set of Scouters secretly watching to make sure they set off on the correct compass bearing toward the destination marked on their maps.

 

c) Life: The Venturer Badge is required for Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Life" called the "Bushman's Cord." This involves two "Journeys:" A short one in which the candidate leads his Patrol through a series of at least 5 "incidents" such as rescues from fire or heights, compass work, and signalling over distance. The second is a 20 mile adult-free Journey on foot or by boat through rugged territory on a route with which the candidate is not familiar. Typically this includes one or two tasks on which the Scout reports with a written report.

 

d) Eagle: Baden-Powell's equivalent to "Eagle" includes the usually optional Senior Explorer Badge with an Expedition of at least four (4) days with three (3) nights spent in tents. This journey must be at least 50 miles by foot or water in wild country, or 62 miles by horseback in wild country.

 

Other Scouting elements missing from the BSA's core Progressive Training program include:

 

2. OBSERVATION & DEDUCTION: Woodcraft Trail Signs, Stalking, and Tracking, including requirements such as "Follow a minimum one mile of Woodcraft Signs in about 25 minutes." "Kim's Game" is another such missing observational advancement requirement.

 

3. SIGNALING (actually a different form of observation and interpretation): Surprisingly, Morse, semaphore, manual alphabet (American Sign Language for communicating with the deaf), and Indian Sign Language, were not part of the program in England, but were used in B-P's program elsewhere in the former British Empire (including the BSA) while B-P was alive, and are therefore included in the Traditional programs of other countries including the USA.

 

4. CURRENT PROFICIENCY: Baden-Powell's program has fewer Proficiency Badges, with advanced "Senior Scouts" versions that replace the elementary "Scout Section" Proficiency Badges. A Scout may not wear a Proficiency Badge if he is not currently proficient in that skill. For instance, if he fails to renew his first aid certification every year, he must remove the first aid badge from his Uniform.

 

5. RETESTING: Baden-Powell Scouts are retested on the Tenderfoot requirements as the second to the last requirement of Second Class, and retested on the Second Class requirements as the second to the last requirement for First Class. The retesting is done by the Patrol Leader, who can waive the requirement for Patrol members who help him teach these skills to other Scouts.

 

6. NO ADULT Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review: These exist in Baden-Powell's program only as a Tenderfoot and Second Class interview with the Scoutmaster to discuss the meaning of Scout Law (not to be judged by the Scoutmaster as to how the Scout "lives" the Scout Law), and a Tenderfoot and Second Class review by the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders' Court) as to how the Scout is working out in his new Patrol. The equivalent to Eagle does require an interview.

 

Kudu

[Beavah]

Yah, I think this question is a fun speculative one, even if originally proposed by a troller. I really like Calicos creative thoughts, eh?

 

If we follow the Gulf War / War on Terror thread, the stuff of growth is development of small, independent, high-efficiency teams doin cool stuff. Special Forces, Navy SEALS; kids think thats cool. Elaborately complex gaming is very much a part of that, and a part of kids lives. Forget Kims Game, da problem solving and memorization in World of Warcraft is the standard. Manage resources, explore and discover, and problem solve to progress and win. And kids will freely spend enormous amounts of time working hard to get better.

 

Sports and extreme sports are also cool. Just like video games, kids will spend hours and hours of their own time working to perfect their ability to do grabs and grind rails on skateboards/snowboards/rollerblades. Boys dont ride bikes around the neighborhood anymore, they go with their mates to ride the crazy trails in the local woods or gravel pit. And tech is cool, for communication and just foolin around. And kids are and need to be way better at highly dynamic, fast-movin challenges. Paintball, not baseball.

 

Group identification is still important, but uniforms arent. Think desert camo field uniforms with small insignia, rather than dress uniforms with ribbons. Adult mentoring is still important, but with much more youth independence than modern adult organized scouting allows. Think of the level of adult involvement in video games or roller bladin, eh? Thats what it was like back in B-Ps day, and what hed target now. Advancement should be by demonstrated competence recognized by your peers, just like video games or trick ridin on your bike. Advancement definitely wouldnt be the adult-run parody it is

 

And probably more ability to specialize individually. Unlike 100 years ago, we live in a world of specialization. Teams are developed by kids pursuing their interest and becoming the best in a specialty area, not by becomin uniform or all followin the same path.

[theysawyoucomin']

Beav,

I have to shine light on some of you comments.

 

Yes, kids think SEALs are cool. However the "average" American kids thinks the mystique of SEALs is cool. The media has fed us the cool side of the SEALS. They don't show the tremendous amount of boring rehearsal and rote memory that takes place. The military has been morphed into some kind of video game where every mothers son is far from danger, killing millions of heathens with a single flight of a remotely piloted vehicle. All that cool military stuff is designed to kill people and break things. At the age of 11 I want my son to have respect for those who serve but I don't want him thinking it is all high speed low drag action all the time. DISCIPLINE,PLANNING,KNOWLEDGE,INTELL,PHYSICAL FITNESS,METAL TOUGHNESS that's what goes into those teams of specialized people. I would counter and say that scouting does some of those things.

 

Is a group of kids that refuse to shop for a weekend campout thinking that a group of Navy SEALS don't have to plan? PLANNING to the minutest detail

 

Why is it those same kids will spend hours looking at a 2 inch screen gathering all the required keys to get into the Frosty Palace on the planet Bubniak won't take the time to make sure they have the right amount of DISCIPLINE to pack the cooking gear for a camping trip?

 

Firearms training is fascinating to kids. Seeing the content of the rifle shooting merit badge is a real downer. The kids are restrained to the utmost. The kids don't even know how to adjust the sights. trying to have all the shots be covered by a quarter is no test of anything. They are shooting off a bench. The rules in the G2SS are tremendously restrictive, but that's another thread. It did not look like those boys were having a good time.

 

Paintball, quite simply is for idiots. As someone who has trained long and hard to kill people with both direct fire and indirect fire weapons, paint ball is for a bunch of wannabees that didn't have the guts to get real training for real service. I laugh out loud at spoiler mommies that buy junior a paintball gun so he can express himself yet anybody that wants to teach him proper respect and handling of firearms is branded a "gun freak". I don't want paintball to ever be a part of scouting.

 

I tremendously agree with peers sitting on boards of review. But don't they already get their chance at peer review when the patrol leader signs off on requirements for advancement?

 

Not one kid signed up for COPE from my son's Troop. COPE looks exciting enough. SEALS use ropes. Not one kid did the mile swim. Seals swim forever. I think kids whine about excitement but when the rubber meets the road many will move to the back of the line.

The Empire is in trouble.

 

 

[Gonzo1]

Beavah,

We already have "small, independent, high-efficiency teams doin cool stuff". They're called patrol.

 

UZ2bnowl

I agree, I hope paintball doesn't make it into BSA.

 

BTW, I usually agree with you two anyway.

 

To stick with the origin premise, I think Scouting wouldn't exist as we know it. Patrol might be called Teams or Buzz Groups and wouln't be identified by fairly cool names like Comanche, Thunderbird, Scorpion and the like. We might have softer names like daisy, dandelion or be named for colors so no one is offended.

 

We certainly wouldn't have Indian Lore, the PC cowd and the ACLU wouldn't allow it.

 

I'm glad we have scouting. I hope it can 'toughen up' a little. I'm very thankful for B-P and what he and our forefathers in BSA have done.

 

Gonzo

[BrentAllen]

Kudu writes: "BSA = Indoor Corporate Leadership Skills dumbed down to be useful to Cub Scout Yellow Blouses"

Wow! That is about the most arrogant, condescending, chauvinistic remark I have seen on this site - and no responses, especially from the women Scouters?

 

Owl writes: "Paintball, quite simply is for idiots. As someone who has trained long and hard to kill people with both direct fire and indirect fire weapons, paint ball is for a bunch of wannabees that didn't have the guts to get real training for real service. I laugh out loud at spoiler mommies that buy junior a paintball gun so he can express himself yet anybody that wants to teach him proper respect and handling of firearms is branded a "gun freak". I don't want paintball to ever be a part of scouting. "

 

Gee, tell us how you really feel! Earth to Owl - Paintball is not military training - it is a game - in fact, it is a popular version of Capture the Flag, which Scouts play all the time. I've never participated in Paintball, but would do so in a heart beat if the chance arose. My son (10 years old, not yet old enough to train to kill people, eh?) enjoys watching it on ESPN, and wants to play. It is a huge industry (see below), so why rip people who enjoy it and can make a good living from it? I remember hearing someone rip Tony Hawk for spending so much time riding a skateboard, until they heard how much money he was making from endorsements and board sales. If that is their passion, and they aren't hurting anyone, why trash them? From just an economic standpoint, they are creating jobs and moving the economy forward.

I shoot NRA Highpower matches, with an AR-15. Slow fire, sustained fire, 200 yards to 600 yards. We shoot National Trophy Infantry Team matches, on the E silhouette. Does that make me and the thousands of others who shoot Highpower "wannabees"?

 

Paintball facts:

Paintball has grown dramatically over the past 23 years with it currently being a multi million-dollar industry (nearly $400 million), played in over 60 countries around the world.

 

In 2003, over 10 million people played Paintball in the United States alone.

Paintball is the third most popular extreme sport in the United States (behind skateboarding and inline skating). More money is spent on Paintball equipment than Racquetball, Table Tennis, Volleyball, Water Skiing, Bowling, Tennis, Basketball, Football or any other Extreme Sport.

7600 Paintball teams compete in the USA in over 325 tournament events.

1.4 million people play Paintball more than 15 times per year.

90% are between the ages of 12 and 24 with 85% of them male.

The average Paintball player spends $44.00 every time they play and nearly $100.00 every time they visit a Paintball retail shop.

45% of frequent players come from households with incomes of more than $50,000.00.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[DanKroh]

Wow, thanks Owl, it's been at least a couple of days since anyone's told me I'm an idiot.

 

I play paintball. It's a fun game, but I can't say it's made me into a "wannabee" anything. I have no desire to learn how to kill anyone. I do it because it's a form of exercise that I don't find hideously boring. However, I also know proper safety with real firearms because I learned how to fire one at a target, and don't intend to ever fire one at anything other than a target.

 

I also shoot target archery, and have no interest in using it to hunt. But I also have nothing against people who do like to bow hunt. Does that also make me a "wannabee"?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[msnowman]

Brent - I saw the comment you mentioned and share your view. To specifically target "Cub Scout Yellow Shirts" is extremely sexist as its only female Cub Scout Leaders can wear the yellow blouse.

 

I think Scouting would look a lot different if it was started in today's world. One of those differences (IMHO) would be making it co-ed. I'm not saying that is necessarily the best idea, just that it would prolly be how Scouts would look if they started now. I think you'd also see more Technology based skill requirements and less Nature based requirements. However, that doesn't mean that the program as it exists now is without merit. Without a place to learn about the outdoors and people to teach them, many boys would never leave their bedrooms, tv sets, video games.

 

YiS

Michelle

[Kudu]

msnowman writes:

 

Brent - I saw the comment you mentioned and share your view. To specifically target "Cub Scout Yellow Shirts" is extremely sexist as its only female Cub Scout Leaders can wear the yellow blouse.

 

It is not "sexist," Michelle, because I am also against men who wear yellow blouses!

 

For me the final straw came during the period when the BSA was neutering Wood Badge so that it was less Boy Scout specific. I attended a National version of the new "Train the Trainer" course, and at one point a gaggle of Yellow Blouses divided us into Patrol-sized groups (they were careful not to call them Patrols). They then handed out colored construction paper, school paste, and those little toy scissors with the rounded ends. I forget the point of the exercise, but I do remember feeling sick to my stomach.

 

I have a female Assistant Scoutmaster. She is the only woman to have ever finished our Council's intensive three-weekend advanced Okpik course. From rock climbing to moving water canoeing, no matter what high adventure training I receive there are usually a few qualified women instructors, but they tend not to wear translucent yellow blouses.

 

Call me sexist, chauvinistic, or whatever, but women (and men) who are not strong outdoor role models should have no place in Boy Scouts except behind the scenes.

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Kudu, I believe Eamonn touched on this subject in another thread, but those strong out door skilled individuals arent around as much as they used to. My father grew up in rural depression Maine and I was taught how to make a rabbit snare at a fairly young age, a skill I have since neglected to pass on. All my fathers friends hunted and could read sign as well as they read maps, and they were great map readers. Many of the younger dads (It hurt to type that) have very little in the way of outdoor or "backwood" experience. They are in it because their kid wanted to be a scout but most have never camped in any fashion and few ever backpacked. The most skilled backpacker we have is an aging hippy who did "Europe" in the 60's, at least he thinks he did. He said back then he never thought he would be a boy scout, but his grand son is in it. So, maybe a week long outdoor skills course is needed, what would you suggest as core skills? Wilderness First Aid

Cooking

Shelter Building

Snares and fish traps

Fire starting au natural

and?

[BrentAllen]

So, Mr. Chauvinist, wouldn't "Train the Trainer" be considered "behind the scenes?" Would serving on the Troop Committee be considered "behind the scenes?" Have all your male ASM's completed all three Okpik courses, or do you only require the women to do so, in order to prove their worth? Or do you think all the women in Scouting should be in the kitchen, making cookies for when the men return home from a campout? Welcome to the 21st Century, where women serve in the military - and not in the kitchen.

 

One final question, Kudu - when you read about us completing our WB for the 21st Century course, or meet one of us in person, and hear us talking about what a great experience it was, do you look down your rugged, outdoors nose and picture us in yellow blouses, or do you picture us wearing special yellow beads? Maybe you should suggest that to National, since we obviously are not of your caliber, and aren't worthy of wearing the same beads as you. Give me a break...

[red feather]

OGE, I would add to you list:

 

orienteering

terrain navigaition

terrain reading

campsite location

equipment and clothing

map reading

walking, hiking skills (how to skills)

emergency and non emergency situation training

 

 

yis

red feather

[mtm25653]

"a gaggle of Yellow Blouses divided us into Patrol-sized groups (they were careful not to call them Patrols). They then handed out colored construction paper, school paste, and those little toy scissors with the rounded ends."

 

Since someone complained/commented that no women had responded, I'll give it a try.

 

I wore a yellow blouse for my first 2 years, when I was Tiger Group Coach (before there were Tiger Den Leaders). But as I've moved on to other positions (Pack Committee Chair, Webelos Den Leader, Troop Committee, Cub Roundtable Commissioner, District Training Team, and now again Pack Committee Chair), I've moved into the tan shirt. I've taken Outdoor Webelos Leader training, Outdoor Leader Skills, 21st Century Wood Badge, and in 2 weeks I'll be on staff for OLS.

 

I don't pretend to be the most skilled leader in the troop, since we have a wealth of leaders who have extensive outdoor experince. That's part of why I've stayed mostly with cubs. But where do most boy scouts come from? Cub scouts. Do you want new boy scouts who are comfortable in the woods, who know basic knife, fire and knot skills? I'll give them to you.

 

I took the first class of the new Wood Badge in my council. We had patrols (I'm a Bear) and we didn't do anything with "colored construction paper, school paste, and those little toy scissors with the rounded ends." We learned/reviewed some outdoor skills and I camped and cooked with my patrol. We also learned a lot about leadership. Isn't that one of the things we are trying to develop in our scouts? I know I used things I learned in Wood Badge when I talked to my youngest son about his struggles as SPL. And now when he is a Troop Guide, it's even harder - he has to learn to influence where he has little direct authority - sounds like leadership skills to me, just like I learned in Wood Badge.

 

To comment on the main topic of this thread - what would scouting be like if it started today. I think about the things my 3 sons have wanted from scouting, and would want from a new organization:

* to learn to be men from good men (I can't teach them to be men)

* to be outdoors and to challenge themselves by doing difficult things like backpacking and long distance canoeing and rock climbing

* to learn neat skills, that other kids in school don't know, like glass-blowing (maybe that could be a new merit badge) and blacksmithing, and rifle and shotgun shooting and how to survive in the wild with no equipment (sounds like wilderness survival) and cooking over an open fire.

 

My boys are as wired as any kids their age, but they turn off the electronics sometimes, and go outside to walk or chop wood or play sports, because they need that physical sensation, that challenge to see what their bodies can do. A lot of boys today don't have that opportunity, and maybe that's the source of a lot of our problems.

 

Yes, if B-P started scouting today to meet the needs and interests of boys like my boys, it would be a lot like today - learning skills and developing leadership. Learning to be good men.

[Kudu]

BrentAllen writes:

 

So, Mr. Chauvinist, wouldn't "Train the Trainer" be considered "behind the scenes?"

 

Um, no. I'm a strict segregationist in that regard. Subject pre-Webelos Cub Scouts to mommies with scissors and paste if you must, but keep that stuff out of Boy Scout training.

 

Would serving on the Troop Committee be considered "behind the scenes?"

 

Yes.

 

Have all your male ASM's completed all three Okpik courses,

 

No, few men get past basic Cold Weather Training. Mostly because they like to look like the Marlboro Man with blue jeans and flannel shirts.

 

or do you only require the women to do so, in order to prove their worth?

 

Require? As usual, you missed the point entirely

 

Or do you think all the women in Scouting should be in the kitchen, making cookies for when the men return home from a campout?

 

I don't have anything against cookies or those who bake them, but women who are not the outdoors type should not be leading Boy Scouts, and certainly not training their trainers.

 

Welcome to the 21st Century, where women serve in the military

 

Baden-Powell liked strong outdoors women, in fact he married one.

 

Maybe you should suggest that to National,

 

No, National is consistent. You can earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a backpack, and you can earn the Wood Badge by taking the same indoor course that many people get at work.

 

All I am saying is that if Baden-Powell was to start a Scouting program in 2006, it just might be a rugged back to B-P basics alternative to the BSA including his original required wilderness Journeys at every stage of advancement, rather than electronic gizmos and Yellow Blouses with scissors and paste.

 

Give me a break...

 

Your Politically Correct righteous indignation is just too funny for words :-/

 

One final question, Kudu...do you look down your rugged, outdoors nose and picture us in yellow blouses....

 

BrentAllen, what you do behind closed doors in Dunwoody GA is none of my business, just don't call it Scouting!

 

Kudu

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Jeffrey H]

Kudu states:  "For me the final straw came during the period when the BSA was neutering Wood Badge so that it was less Boy Scout specific. I attended a National version of the new "Train the Trainer" course, and at one point a gaggle of Yellow Blouses divided us into Patrol-sized groups (they were careful not to call them Patrols). They then handed out colored construction paper, school paste, and those little toy scissors with the rounded ends. I forget the point of the exercise, but I do remember feeling sick to my stomach."

I have to sympathize with Kudu.  I often get frustrated when training courses are irrelevant to the training we need.