Scouting and Video Games

[Beavah]

In an odd thread in the Issues forum, someone comments:

 

But on the 2-hour drive back home from Enchanted Rock, all they could talk about were video games, the new Xbox, which games they wanted for Christmas, etc.

 

So we should ask ourselves...Why? Why is the video game so addictively popular, even after one of our campouts?

 

* It is not adult-run. At all.

 

* A kid achieves new levels at his own pace; no one is "pushing" him except his own desires.

 

* Failure is just a stepping stone to getting better.

 

* It is very engaging... physically, and mentally. You are never waiting around listening to rules and lectures.

 

* You do not get "signed off." All that counts is what you are able to do, and you love being "re-tested" to show off to your friends.

 

* It is social. You can share stories and tips with your friends, and even play with them on-line.

 

* You can play more than once a month, without sitting around at any "meetings."

 

* There is no uniform. You are valued for your skill, not your clothing.

 

* It is uniform. Everyone is treated the same by the machine... all that counts is what you learn/figure out about the game.

 

* Leadership isn't a position. It's who has the best idea to get past the dragon.

 

* Whether it's Cops & Robbers, Cowboys & Indians, Squirtguns & Waterballoons, Space guns with infrared chips, Airsoft or Paintball, or video game blasters, it's great fun to shoot things and make them go boom.

 

* You can always beat any adult who is dumb enough to challenge you.

 

 

Hmmmm.... There are probably some lessons there, if we're willing to listen.

[szekany]

Thanks for posting this, Beavah! This is a really interesting topic. IMO, we're failing in our mission if we don't adjust and "tweak" our program to meet the needs of our youth. Identifying what other programs work for our youth and why is an excellent first step to figuring out what we should change.

 

So perhaps the question we should ask ourselves is: how can we take the best parts of the "video game experience" and apply them to Scouting?

 

In some ways, there's a fair bit of overlap as it is, at least in the unit I've been with. Lots of Scout run stuff. Scouts advance at their own pace in response to the challenges the program presents (no artificial first-class-first-year silliness). Failure is a part of improvement.

 

And yet, there's other things we could learn. There's no laundry list of sign-offs to get past a "level". Lots of mental and physical challenge and less "being talked at" (or worse - "trained").

 

Hmm... lots of interesting stuff here. I'll have to think about this one a bit more.

[msnowman]

As much as Nephew loves Scouts, he does love his video games. Why? For just about all of the reasons Beavah mentioned above, especially the beating adults part.

 

His Troop on at least one occassion has planned a "Halo night" as an overnight, lock-in, Troop activity. (Halo being a multi-player video game). I'm not sure I consider this a great Scouting activity, but it was boy planned, led, coordinated, etc so that makes it a great Scouting activity regardless of what I (or any other adult) thinks.

 

Video games do not require 2 deep leadership, tour permits or an adult to drive. Boys can get together on the fly to hang out and play. Oh yea, and they don't just play the video game...they chat, compare notes, (and not just about the game either) etc (Nephew had an overnighter, video game birthday party....I learned more about 12 year old boys than I had hoped to know, my bedroom being right off the living room and young male voices carry well).

 

Oh yea and Beavah - You do get judged on the clothes your character wears if its a game wear you can acquire new gear...Nephew tells me everyday what new "stuff" his character has.

 

YiS

Michelle

[gwd-scouter]

Both of my sons are avid video game players and probably spend too many hours at it. Both are also very involved in Boy Scouts, starting at Tigers. Oldest, now in college, is an Eagle and works every summer at Scout Camp. Youngest just made star. Both very bright, intelligent, funny young people with varied interests.

 

And, yes, the oldest does play some "Mature" rated and violent video games - Halo being one of the more popular.

 

I asked my son about msnowman's lock-in idea and he said he wasn't sure it was an appropriate event for younger Scouts. His words... "When I play Halo, I go into "video-game" mentality. I tend to lose focus of other things around me, I get mad more easily, and swear more easily as well."

 

But then he also said "I think talking to the parents of the younger scouts to see how they feel about it would be a good idea, just to see how they'd take it. They'd probably have a bigger problem with it than the scouts would."

 

Both sons have also had birthday overnighters at our house where videogaming was the main event. Games went on all night 'till the last boy was awake (one or two actually make it through to breakfast). While the noise level sometimes sends me over the edge, I do enjoy listening to them chat about all manner of topics - not just video games. Gives one a great insight into the teenage mind!

 

 

[Holaka]

This is interesting. Our troop has decided to an "electric campout". We are renting a cabin in January or February, and the boys can bring anything electronic they want. X-box, PS2, GameCube, DVD players, what ever they want. They just need to be responsible for their stuff, and share.

 

The boys can stay up as late as they like, they just need to be out of bed for breakfast, which is being cooked by the adults for them.

 

They can work on scout skills if they so desire, or they can just play games all weekend. I do know that they won't be playing video games all weekend, as they have challenged the adults to a game of capture the flag.

 

A couple of adults plan on playing euchre all night.

 

Will this work? We will see. As for now, the boys are really looking forward to this, and they are taking responsibility to plan it.

[TheFourGuardians]

Hi there, I've been looking around for a while, and as a scout, teenager, and gamer, I find this topic to be slightly fititng. I guess I thought I might as well post that if there are any things I could explain maybe...

 

What I think makes video games most fun is that they are not realistic- many fantasies can be played out in a way that is engrossing, such as slaying a dragon, saving the universe, etc.

 

Next, I think that the FPS catagory, such as the aformentioned Halo, is a way of doing exciting things without physical risk.

 

Finally simulations seem to suggest an almost omnipotent control of the situation, and are like the first case, except with a different perspecitve.

 

But that's just my opinion on three reasons for the most popular video games(action/adventure/RPG, FPS's, and simulations.)

 

Anyway, I don't know if they are quite as relevent as initially suggested, save in different ways(except the simulation type ones which seem to show a desire for independence.) I think that the FPS case might not show so much a desire for the whole computer treating you equally(although certainly that's a factor) as it is for being able to do exciting things. That might suggest early on a desire for a bit more freedom in what they do, but afterwards for the whole safe action.

 

As to the above poster, the trip sounds fun, but the adults cooking! If only we could get the adults in our troop to do that...(save the leader's chili, I suppose.)

 

[Eagledad]

>>Will this work? We will see. As for now, the boys are really looking forward to this, and they are taking responsibility to plan it.

[Meechgalanne]

I am extremely active with video games. Im in a video game clan. My life runs with boyscouts, school, friends, and video games. I play halo. And i play other games. The one thing i hate is when people think that its a kid thing. I absoulutly have to disagree. In my clan, we have full adults playing. People with jobs. We have firecheif, network admins, sports clothing designer, website designers, and so on. So how does gaming help me?Well my new dream is to become a video game designer. I realize that games are something that make people happy and something for them to use to have fun. I think gaming has a lot to offer. One being patience. The game Americas Army, is a somewhat realistic game about Americas army. The game is free and is very good. Guess where i got my first version!! THE NATIONAL BOY SCOUT JAMBOREE!!

I the game teaches people patience, waiting to come back into the game when you die. I think it teaches leadership. You command you team into battle, and you even get leadership points. Theres a lot games have to offer. I could go on all day.

 

[DanKroh]

Ahhhh...

 

If I may reminisce for a moment (and at the risk of sounding like an old fart), I remember when gaming meant pencils, graph paper, character sheets, dice, books, and if you were really into it, miniature figures....

 

But I do remember a lot of the same comments made about D&D back in the day. What's the appeal? Doesn't it teach violence? Won't it make my child antisocial?

 

Well, I think with both D&D and video games, what you do or don't get out of it depends a lot on how you play. Our D&D campaigns were just that, well-planning, imaginative, epic adventures that required the use of skills like problem solving, teamwork, imagination. Other kids played "hack and slash" that pretty much required no thought.

 

My sons both love video games. I try to steer them toward the ones that require you to solve puzzles or at least use their imaginations to advance in the game, rather than just be able to push a button to hit and run faster than your opponent. But I also let them play Road Rage and a couple of the other "hack and slash" (or in this day and age, "shoot 'em up") games as long as the violence is not over the top. They are mostly restricted to E games, a couple of T ones that I have approved (no M yet, but the oldest is only 11).

 

Kids these days have a lot of expectations placed on them, and just like adults, need a way to decompress at the end of the day. As long as they are playing video games that I've screened for appropriateness, they can have their fun in a way they choose.

 

Edited to add: Oh, and anyone who thinks all video games have to be sedentary haven't seem my boys bouncing around and working up a healthy sweat playing Dance Dance Revolution! (This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[Beavah]

Thanks Meech and Four for your comments. Your enthusiasm for your gaming life shows!

 

My question back at you is: Can you tell us what we could change/improve about Scouting to make it as fun and addictive as video gaming? Or at least take a step in that direction?

 

Was I on the mark with any of my observations? Or is it something "else?"

[TheFourGuardians]

 

"My question back at you is: Can you tell us what we could change/improve about Scouting to make it as fun and addictive as video gaming? Or at least take a step in that direction? "

 

 

 

Hmm...that's a good question.

 

From what I can tell from video games, they're imaginative and often seem to allow adventure without danger. Of course, I think that a troop which does more activities which are unique might be able to do that(perhaps pioliting an aircraft as opposed to "another" hike down the same trail type things."

 

Then there are other situations of being able to do things you aren't generally supposed to do: this may or may not be correlated to boy led patrols.

 

I'd like to see de-politization of both of these things, the BSA and video games, but sadly that's not where either of the two are going. I say sadly because politization is responsible for the deaths of enough mediums already(need I mention the lost art of comic books.) Video games are certainly on the list, and the BSA is just another battle in the war for votes. Both sides like video games because most adults, it seems, have their impressions formed by the media, which show games where you destroy the entire earth, but never one of saving it. In the same manner many read about the BSA policy of denying atheists and never read about the scout troop which raises over a few thousand dollars for 9-11 relief.

 

 

But I digress...

 

Addiction to BSA might be possible if, and I suppose only if, the boys involved cared enough, competition was fostered a bit, and troublesome "players" removed. I mean that in online games, a player is often penalized by either other players or an administrator for misconduct(such as team-killing.) However, I've noticed early on as a scout that neither the Scoutmaster nor the SPL have enough ability to slightly discipline the troop without doing just that. If a scout does something somewhat wrong, my options are: yell, accomplishing little, make empty threats accomplishing less, not recommend advancement, which is worthless, or recomend removal, which is extreme. However, I think I'm digressing again.

 

 

To make scouts fun, I think the key is activity. I have, personally, a very apathetic troop and this makes it hard to do anything fun.

 

I'd say that the difference between scouts and a video game is that a fun game has you always doing something interesting, exciting, and probably challenging. However, scouts has a tendency to more or less spend time planning and not being able to do quite so much or doing redundant things.

 

I, personally, have little idea how to keep the senior scouts from boredom at meetings simply because they've done most things and I'm pretty much setting things up alone or only with the aid of materials.

 

HOwever, that's really more of a troop issue than a universal rule.

 

I think that varied activities would make scouting more addictive. If scouts knew each meeting they could learn something fun or do something fun, they might look foward to it.

 

But that's just me...

 

 

 

[Torveaux]

I have a unique perspective here. I have worked as a professional game designer for a major publisher of video games. I no longer work in the profession, but I have quite a few friends with whom I continue to keep in contact.

 

Contrary to popular belief, even the most non-linear appearing video games have objectives that must be met before reaching the next level. The fact that it is the designer or programmer that is automatically 'signing' off does not really diminish the reality of the situation. The real difference between the two systems in that regard is that the rules are consistent for the video game. In Scouting, the human element comes into play to change the rules in an arbitrary fashion. The caveat to that point is that hackers consistently look for ways to 'cheat' their way to success and some players use these cheats to falsely convince themselves that they have won.

 

I certainly see a place for playing video games (or D&D) in the proper context and in moderation.

 

The area I would like to see BSA use technology for is to level the playing field so someone who 'earns' a merit badge or a Cub or Webelos Award has done the same work as everyone else that has earned the award.

[Lisabob]

Hey FourGuardians, don't despair. My son and his buddies are all comic book junkies! Also the university where I work has a scholar-in-residence program and this year "our" scholar is a comic book artist.

 

I think one appealing characteristic of a lot of video games is that they can be played in a variety of ways, depending on what the player thinks is fun. Yes, there are certain parameters, but within those, there's a lot of choice. My favorite games also allow the player to revisit scenarios and yet they don't feel like "repeats" because the game changes/is changed based on how you play. So every time is different.

 

Could boy scouts be more like this? Sure...but you'd need a great deal of flexibility, trust, confidence, and creativity on the part of both the boys and adults. You'd need to avoid the "we're doing it THIS way because we have always done it THIS way" sort of attitude that seems especially common among certain adult leaders.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[Lynda J]

Once a year our boys plan a "Game Campout" We have it at one of the camps that has a nice building with plenty of electrical outlets and heat. This camping trip the only thing required of them is to cook their meals. All of the other time can be spent playing games. We take several TV's and power strips. The boys sleep in the room and can play as late as they wish. The only other requirement is that any game brought must be appropiate for all age groups that are there.

 

The boys love it. We will be doing this trip in Feb. Last night the boys started making their list of which games they would be bringing.

 

 

[Scoutndad]

Hey Meech....

 

How about your first project is a Boy Scout video game?

 

Don't tell me you couldn't find a way to use ropes, knots, camping gear for a fantasy game huh? (Dodging lightning strikes on open ground, safely rapelling(sp) off of cliffs with correct gear, not to mention being able to travel world wide to other international scout troops and deal with different climates, conditions, topography)Need to tie certain knots for certain situations, need to cook meals in order for your "scout" to stay alive, find water, GPS navigation, etc...

 

I could see a real need for an E rated game for younger scouts if Gaming night becomes a predominant scout activity and could obviously incorporate scouting functions.

 

I also agree with GWD's scout...my son goes into video mentality when playing more "extreme" (HALO type) games and is more easily frustrated, more prone to outbursts, and becomes overall more agitated. I would not agree to an all-nighter with HALO or any realistic combat games (which may weed out a few scouts) but think the idea is pretty cool.

 

Although I COMPLETELY BAN all video games at my Cub functions, my son and I enjoy battling each other on his PS2 when we get home...helps me understand the games he plays and make better game purchases in the future, but it is also a forum that my son and I enjoy where he can beat me at something and I won't yell, scream, kick and cry....much...

 

It also makes him feel more comfortable since we are equal, and allows him to ask more questions about the world that is unfolding around his 11 year old mind.