Troop trailers towed by summer camp staff.

[E V Augustine]

Beaumont Scout Reservation has instituted a policy where summer camp adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers from a parking lot near the public road to the respective troop's campsite.  The towed distances are about a mile over gravel roads.  Council's stated goal is to control trailer placement at the campsites.  They move 15 to 20 trailers a week during the season.  On leaving camp at week's end the troops tow their own trailers out of camp. 

I been told that councils would or should have some form of insurance covering damage to the trailer, its contents, and personal injury occurring while in the control of camp staff in the event of negligence.  It seems an errant staffer's claim, "I did the best I could" would be a perfect defense.

I am interested in hearing if other summer camps have the same policy, not about designated parking but operation of the trailer by camp staff.

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:38 PM by E V Augustine

[InquisitiveScouter]

30 minutes ago, E V Augustine said:

Beaumont Scout Reservation has instituted a policy where summer camp adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers from a parking lot near the public road to the respective troop's campsite.  The towed distances are about a mile over gravel roads.  Council's stated goal is to control trailer placement at the campsites.  They move 15 to 20 trailers a week during the season.  On leaving camp at week's end the troops tow their own trailers out of camp. 

I been told that councils would or should have some form of insurance covering damage to the trailer, its contents, and personal injury occurring while in the control of camp staff in the event of negligence.  It seems an errant staffer's claim, "I did the best I could" would be a perfect defense.

I am interested in hearing if other summer camps have the same policy, not about designated parking but operation of the trailer by camp staff.

 

For us, anyone driving camp (council) vehicles must be listed on the council's insurance policy.  Units move and park their own trailers, and those vehicle operators assume liability risk on their own insurance policies per the G2SS, Transportation section:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss11/

13.  All vehicles must be covered by automobile liability insurance with limits that meet or exceed the requirements of the state in which the vehicle is licensed. It is recommended, however, that coverage limits are at least $100,000 combined single limit. Any vehicle designed to carry ten or more passengers should have limit of $1,000,000. For insurance information refer to the Insurance section in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

14.  When towing the tow vehicle driver has the knowledge, skills, and abilities to operate the vehicle with the attached unit.

That your council is having "...adult staff using their personal vehicles tow all troop trailers..." is troubling.  Council cannot require any staff member to use their personal vehicle for camp requirements, without remuneration and ensuring adequate liability coverage.  If they make this some sort of condition for employment, or otherwise require employees (which camp staff are) to use their personal vehicles in this way, they are asking for trouble.

Good luck convincing them

[E V Augustine]

There is another layer.  We rent a trailer from a national truck and trailer rental company.  The parties to the rental agreement are well defined and documented in the contract.  A third party using their vehicle to tow the rented trailer puts me in material breach of the contract and voids the purchased damage waiver and contents insurance.  In the event of damage or worse I would be on the hook and then have to pursue council and the inept driver.  That would be after I had to explain why I breached the contract.

Oddly enough the solution is let the units bring in and park their trailers in identified spots in the campsites.  I know they refuse to consider that.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

27 minutes ago, E V Augustine said:

There is another layer.  We rent a trailer from a national truck and trailer rental company.  The parties to the rental agreement are well defined and documented in the contract.  A third party using their vehicle to tow the rented trailer puts me in material breach of the contract and voids the purchased damage waiver and contents insurance.  In the event of damage or worse I would be on the hook and then have to pursue council and the inept driver.  That would be after I had to explain why I breached the contract.

Oddly enough the solution is let the units bring in and park their trailers in identified spots in the campsites.  I know they refuse to consider that.

 

Go to a different camp   Easy, peasy

[Tron]

So what is the reasoning behind this? I am imagining something like all non-staff are now forbidden from driving on the camp period? Is that the goal? What are they trying to achieve, what is the true goal here? 

[E V Augustine]

The goal is control and to minimize road and camp site grounds maintenance costs.  Gravel costs money. Beaumont is occupied by 22 tent sites, 12 lodges, a pool and a large office and dining facility.  Undeveloped areas are wetlands and facultative wetlands.  The rest has poor drainage.  The three main roads have a gravel surface. The tent site clusters are accessed by moderately rutted dirt roads. 

Camp management claims troops towing their own trailers in cause damage to roads and sites due to lack of familiarity with conditions.  However, troops towing their trailers out at week's end apparently do not.

Vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access on entry and departure. Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms. 

One of our camp leaders has two bad knees.  A friend might loan me his surplus deuce and a half for the week.  A compliant solution. 

[HashTagScouts]

7 hours ago, E V Augustine said:

The goal is control and to minimize road and camp site grounds maintenance costs.  Gravel costs money. Beaumont is occupied by 22 tent sites, 12 lodges, a pool and a large office and dining facility.  Undeveloped areas are wetlands and facultative wetlands.  The rest has poor drainage.  The three main roads have a gravel surface. The tent site clusters are accessed by moderately rutted dirt roads. 

Camp management claims troops towing their own trailers in cause damage to roads and sites due to lack of familiarity with conditions.  However, troops towing their trailers out at week's end apparently do not.

Vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access on entry and departure. Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms. 

One of our camp leaders has two bad knees.  A friend might loan me his surplus deuce and a half for the week.  A compliant solution. 

This is so weird to me- you can drive out, but not in. If their real intent is not just have folks driving o'er hill and dale and trampling everything on the way, it would seem that the Camp staff could serve a purpose on saying "you will be accompanied by Camp Staff to drop trailers at the appropriate troop campsite". Our camp has a designated hour, before campers are to arrive, for units that wish to have a trailer at their campsite. Staff don't physically ride along with them (as they are typically the youth staff), but they will meet them at the campsite if the unit is not familiar with where to appropriately place trailers (Ranger allows in site entryway, but not within the campsite proper).

[E V Augustine]

I agree.  There is a staffer posted at each campsite to greet and assist incoming troops, then once camp is set take the guys on an orientation tour.  A 10' x 20' gravel pad at each site near the road would would prevent any difficulties.  But, as I wrote in an earlier post, gravel costs money. 

In the current system troops arrive at the campsite with personal gear then wait as much as 2.5 hours for their trailer with troop gear (tents) to appear.  This year in a camp leaders Zoom call the camp director discussed the importance of working quickly to set camp.  Apparently staff is inconvenienced by the delays.  To me this smacks of defending a bad decision. 

InquisitiveScouter suggested finding another camp.  That's in the works. 

[yknot]

Sounds like some of the damage is being done based on how and where people park and how that affects where and how they pull out. If the staff parks the trailer, then they know how you are going to leave, so that's why they are not so worried about the pull out. 

[E V Augustine]

yknot, your thought would hold true if vehicles towing trailers were the only ones on the roads.  In an earlier post I wrote that vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access to campsites on entry and departure.  Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms.  Given the typical distribution of one vehicle/trailer combination to about 10-15 passenger vehicles per troop at camp, management's justification gets pretty thin pretty quickly.

From the postings so far I am encouraged that the practice of camp staff towing troop trailers into the campsite is unique to Beaumont Scout Reservation.

[Tron]

5 hours ago, E V Augustine said:

yknot, your thought would hold true if vehicles towing trailers were the only ones on the roads.  In an earlier post I wrote that vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access to campsites on entry and departure.  Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms.  Given the typical distribution of one vehicle/trailer combination to about 10-15 passenger vehicles per troop at camp, management's justification gets pretty thin pretty quickly.

From the postings so far I am encouraged that the practice of camp staff towing troop trailers into the campsite is unique to Beaumont Scout Reservation.

Yes, staff driving a units vehicle or towing a units trailer is not normal. I can't say if it is unique to Beaumont; however, I have been to many scout camps and never experienced or heard of this before. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 minutes ago, Tron said:

Yes, staff driving a units vehicle or towing a units trailer is not normal. I can't say if it is unique to Beaumont; however, I have been to many scout camps and never experienced or heard of this before. 

At the camp I grew up in (1980's, LOL!), our Camp Director got fed up with shenanigans, and went to a system where, when units arrived in the main parking lot, they loaded all their gear into a camp trailer, and Ranger or Asst Ranger drove it to their campsite, with staff members assisting on loading and unloading.

The issues then were too many cars in camp, drivers far exceeding safe speeds on camp roads with campers running everywhere, and people not getting their vehicles out expeditiously.  So, about my third year on staff, the Camp Director instituted that procedure, and it worked well for the next five years I was on that staff...

[yknot]

4 hours ago, E V Augustine said:

yknot, your thought would hold true if vehicles towing trailers were the only ones on the roads.  In an earlier post I wrote that vehicles transporting people and their gear are allowed access to campsites on entry and departure.  Adult campers may drive in and park on the road during the week if they have limited mobility documented on their medical forms.  Given the typical distribution of one vehicle/trailer combination to about 10-15 passenger vehicles per troop at camp, management's justification gets pretty thin pretty quickly.

From the postings so far I am encouraged that the practice of camp staff towing troop trailers into the campsite is unique to Beaumont Scout Reservation.

Trailers can do more damage than standard vehicles. Other threads here have talked about scouters who don't know how to properly connect, load, equalize, or drive trailers. It's not always just about weight. Somebody who gets themselves in a bad spot, or has to yink yank all over to back in, can do a lot of site damage. It may be only your scout camp that has this particular policy so far, but there are a lot of places where you can no longer drive in at all. Scouting also has a 'camp in all weather' credo. People sometimes do not consider potential site damage when weighing plans but it is upper mind for many facilities. They're trying to work with you in their own way -- they know it's hitched properly, that maybe you can't drive it around after they've parked it, and they can control where it's put. It is a liability concern though for he reasons mentioned. 

[E V Augustine]

There is a Scout camp in northeast Ohio that used a farm tractor towing a hay wagon to haul troop gear into their campsite.  Staff does not handle troop gear.  I am not sure the practice continues.  I have been told it took hours to get into the campsites.  

At the northeast PA summer camp I attended as a Scout in the middle 1960's we walked our personal gear in over a box truss footbridge straddling a creek.  Then everything you needed for the week would fit in a Yucca pack.  The current "suggested Scout gear list" barely fits in a 90 liter plastic tub.

 

[E V Augustine]

32 minutes ago, yknot said:

Trailers can do more damage than standard vehicles. Other threads here have talked about scouters who don't know how to properly connect, load, equalize, or drive trailers. It's not always just about weight. Somebody who gets themselves in a bad spot, or has to yink yank all over to back in, can do a lot of site damage. It may be only your scout camp that has this particular policy so far, but there are a lot of places where you can no longer drive in at all. Scouting also has a 'camp in all weather' credo. People sometimes do not consider potential site damage when weighing plans but it is upper mind for many facilities. They're trying to work with you in their own way -- they know it's hitched properly, that maybe you can't drive it around after they've parked it, and they can control where it's put. It is a liability concern though for he reasons mentioned. 

Six years ago I proposed a solution to the concerns you expressed to be applied at the other Council owned camp.  There the camp driving policy was more restrictive and the roads even less well maintained.  The attached Driver's Competence Award concept was submitted to Council and ignored.  I even had a Scouter with a CDL willing to teach the courses.

Drivers Competence Award.pdf