Merit Badges - what if signed, but not earned?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Just a hypothetical quesiton

 

A scout comes to you for a Swmimming merit badge blue card. You sign it and give it to him and suggest/assign (not sure you can assign, but for this situation I'll go along with it) 2 counselors you know will do it right.

 

The scout comes back 2 months later with a signed blue card by a registered counselor other than you the ones you suggested. The problem is the guy is known not to do a very good job, but is still registered as a counselor. When you quesiton the scout, he says he tried the other two but couldnt contact them. They never responded to his messages. The scout called the scout office and got the third one's name and contacted him and did the badge.

 

You now have a scout with a signed blue card by an approved counselor.

 

Now, I know a lot of people on this forum would say make the scout do it over, and the scout is told he has to redo the badge.

 

The scout takes his 1/3 of the signed Blue Card and goes to the District Executive. The scout points out he has a signed blue card from a registered counselor and wants to know if the Troop can make him redo the badge.

 

Now what do you think will happen?

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Twocubdad 665]

You guys are all correct if you're dealing with a bull-headed Scoutmaster who wants to exert his authority and a bull-headed Scout who's looking for an easy way out.

 

But you've all ignored the best advice in this thread when LauraT7 said:

 

Another thing you can do is have a SM conference with the boys who received credit. Point out that a Scout is Trustworthy, and Obedient. He promised to 'do his best ... to keep himself... morally straight. Is it honest, obedient and moral to take credit for something he did not legitimately do?

 

Leadership is not necessarily the application of the black-letter law.

[scoutingagain 20]

The Troop I joined was in tough advancement shape as well when I joined several years ago with my son. While parents were not signing merit badge requirements, there were a lot of partials being credited by SMs and ASMs on dubious documentation after kids would return from camp. I was asked to take on the role of advancement chair last year and have made some progress within the troop. We now have Merit Badge Counselors(MBCs) that have filled out applications and sent them in to the District. I've looked at them and am satified the MBC's for the troop are qualified for the Badges they sign off on. I asked the District for a list MBCs 3 months ago and am still waiting. Apparently one doesn't exist.

 

I understand there is a new District Advancement Chairman who is trying to change things and it getting a list together.

 

I should also add only a handful of merit badges are done within the troop. Most scouts choose to earn badges at summer camp or the District's Merit Badge University program, where badges are taught like in summer camp over several weekends in March. That a whole other issue.

 

 

OGE, I can't speak to your hypothetical. The MBC's in our troop I know are qualified and available. If the scout came with a card signed by someone else, I have no list to verify the individual MBC's validity or not. Not being able to verify the validity of a counselor I would probably have the scout talk to one of the Troop's MBCs. If the Troop MBC was convinced the scout had done the work and was willing to co-sign the card I'd give the scout the badge. If not, the MBC would work with the scout to get the badge done. If we didn't have a qualified MBC for the badge, I'd try and find someone that was qualified and get them to fill out an MBC application.

 

I'm an MBC for four badges. Filled out the appplication sent it in with our troop committee chairperson to roundtable and have never heard a word from anyone.

 

I relate this only because I am somewhat suprised and disheartened as to how wide spread some of these issues are.

 

 

SA

 

[EagleInKY 14]

2CD -

 

While I agree hypothetically, I think it's putting a lot on the scout to "fess up" at a Scoutmaster's conference. I like being up-front with the boys prior to camp, thus making sure everyone understands the process going into it. We've had very few questions.

 

As for being bullheaded, I don't see it that way at all. In fact, I leave it up to the troop-assigned MBC's to sign off on the work. As SM, I try to stay out of that completely. If one of our counselors signs off on the MB, I don't question it. I've even had some that I thought "went easy" on the boys, but it was their decision.

[dan 10]

EagleINKY

Same question for you.

Do you also tell the scouts that they can contest this through the council?

Which would be the correct thing to do, wouldn't it?

A SM is trustworthy.

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Whether a counselor is good or bad is subjective. it's a judgement call and it is not the Scoutmaster's jusgement that counts. Merit Badge counselors can be recruited by the Unit but theymust be registered and approved by the district and/or council advancement committees,period.

 

The scoutmaster does not have an obligation to see that the the MB is done the way he thinks is proper. The scoutmaster has the responsibility of following the advancemt policies and procedures. It is the responsibility of the MB counselor to to the job correctly. It is the responsibility of the district/council to determine if the counselor should change their methods or be removed.

 

One of the advantages of attending Trainng at Phhimont is you get to talk directly to msny of the National Directors. One of the Faculty memebers for the Boy Scout Advancement seminar was Terry Lawson Director of Boy Scout advancement. So I write with great certainty, the SM cannot keep a scout from meeting or completeing a MB with any registered, approved counselor.

 

We talked in other threads of the harmful traits of the autocratic Scoutmaster abd their ability to ruin a troop. Any SM who would use their self-percieved authority to deny a scout from meeting with a bonafide counselor is a good example.

 

If you don't think a person is a good counselor report them, counsel the scout, but you do not have the authority to deny him the choice or the advancement.

[EagleInKY 14]

dan -

 

I haven't had anyone question it. But, I'm sure I eventually will. Yes, I would tell a scout that, if it were an issue.

 

I know of another troop nearby that did have a scout go to council over an issue with a summer camp MB, and the council sided with the troop. We modeled our approach after theirs, so I hope that we will always be on solid footing.

 

Here's an example - at Summer Camp this past year, the Mammal Study MB counselor was horrible. He was a young CIT, Life Scout, had no training and had the class dumped on him on Sunday. Here's what they did to fulfill a couple of the requirements.

 

Requirement 3c- "From study and reading, write a simple history of one nongame mammal that lives in your area. Tell how this mammal lived before its habitat was affected in any way by man. Tell how it reproduces, what it eats, what eats it, and its natural habitat. Describe its dependency upon plants, upon other animals (including man), and how they depend upon it. Tell how it is helpful or harmful to man. "

 

What they did - He asked the class these questions about a few different mammals. Out of a group of about 20 or so Scouts, probably 4 or 5 answered the questions. No one wrote anything, or did any research on their own.

 

Requirement 5 - Work with your counselor, select and carry out one project that will influence the numbers of one or more mammals.

 

What they did - He took them over to a trail, had them throw some sticks down the side of it. He said it was "erosion control" and that many mammals would benefit from it. It turned into a stick throwing contest, where some were tossing huge logs down the hillside.

 

Okay, so as SM I confronted (1) the counselor, (2) the ecology director and (3) the camp director. Both the ecology director and the camp director agreed that there was a problem, and that they would address it before the next session. But they did nothing for our week.

 

Our troop MBC that was assigned to Mammal Study gave the boys from our troop partials. They did a real service project on the next campout that did help mammals. They also each wrote a report on a mammal, according to the MB requirements.

 

So, according to Bob White, my autocratic ways are ruining our troop. (Putting some words in his mouth, I know). Sorry, but I don't see it that way at all. Our methods are insuring that the boys are meeting the requirements. It's the unqualified counselor that has the potential to mess things up.

[dan 10]

EagleinKY

I did not ask if anyone questioned it. I asked if you have told the scouts of there rights.

If you are going to deny them the badge they deserve to be told that there are ways to question the refusal.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"If you don't think a person is a good counselor report them, counsel the scout, but you do not have the authority to deny him the choice or the advancement."

 

Please explain why it says in numerous places that the Scoutmaster will assign a counselor. If the Scoutmaster has no input in which counselors he thinks are appropriate, why have him in the loop at all?

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

dan - No problem. I certainly believe in being totally open and honest with the boys. That's why I don't think it's been much of an issue. We go into camp with the open and honest about our philosophy. Also, we talk with the boys about it through the week, so they know how the troop's counselor feels about it. There should be no surprises after camp is over. It may have sounded that way from my original post.

 

[Bob White 20]

The scoutmaster is in the loop

1. to make sure the scout has the name of at least one registered, approved merit badge counselor.

2. To get to know the interests of the scout and to keep abreast of the scouts interest in earning merit badges.

3. To make sure the scout has the needed forms and a buddy to go with him, so that he is prepared for meeting the counselor.

4. To encourage the scout to continue working toward his goals of advancemnt.

 

The goals and methods of scouting are all based on positive behavior. We are there to encourage the scouts not create artificial roadblocks. If your personal opinion is that a counselor is not doing the job correctly report it to the advancement committee. If they disagree with you, that's their opinion and it's their opinion that counts in this case.

 

Everyone has a different idea of how a counselor should or shouldn't instruct. The fact is that a committee has the responsibility to make the determination and not the Scoutmaster. As far as the scout is concerned, the inability of adults to play nice is not his problem. You cannot punish him for it. Denying him the opportunity to meet with an approved counselor is not the responsibility or aurthority of the unit.

 

[frank10 12]

"The scout called the scout office and got the third one's name and contacted him and did the badge. "

 

I can only dream and hope that some day one of my scouts will have enough drive to find a counselor on their own.

[LauraT7 13]

Ed, FOG, Eagle in KY,

 

Will someone please tell me exactly where you are getting the idea that the SM 'approves' or 'assigns' a MB counselor to the boy?

 

I have checked the boy's handbook, A guide to Merit Badge Counseling, and the SM handbook and they all use exactly the same verbage: "obtain from your SM a signed MB application and the name of a qualified counselor for that MB" it does NOT say that the SM "approves" the counselor.

 

the only difference is that the adult books say 'obtain from HIS SM..." as they are not talking to the scout.

 

I think bad verbal info has gotten passed around so much that people are taking it as the truth.

 

there is also nothing that tells me the boy can't find a MB counselor on his own - tho something in my gut tells me that he should at least TELL his SM that he has found one already or could not make contact with the name(s) he was given.

 

Obviously, whenever we send boys off to summer camp, no one knows the NAMES of the couselors for all the badges ahead of time!

 

____________

 

Eagle in KY -

 

in your camp situation, you did the boys and the camp a service by pointing out the problem of the unqualified MB counselor.

 

BUT - if that counselor was handed that job suddenly on SUNDAY - I doubt he was a registered counselor, anyway. sounds like someone (not you) goofed on many levels at that camp and your boys got shorted.

 

But you also set an example for your boys - they learned that you had higher expectations of them and that you would follow thru in making things right.

 

 

However,it would bother me that you think it would be some kind of 'strain' on the boys to have a discussion in a SM conference about their not dong the requirements for a badge. A SM conference shouldn't be a big thing, nor should it be reserved for advancement and discipline - just pull the guys aside and have a heart-to heart! If you come off as an authority figure to them, they are going to treat you as such and be automatically defensive - you've backed them into a corner. But if you have a relationship where you can just sit and talk something out with them - most of them will come to their own conclusion that getting 'handed' the badge is not serving anyone. Our SM is particularly good at this - and has set the tone for all the other ASM's in our troop.

 

 

I have seen troops that 'micro manage' their boys at camp and march them from badge station to badge station in groups, handing out blue cards and collecting them at the end of class, reminding them of what they need to work on, and not to forget ther pencils, clipboards and sweaters..... I'd think if the boys wanted to go to summer school - they'd have picked real school where at least there was air conditioning!

 

how is 'monitoring' their work in this way different from a counselor handing them a requirement or two? Aren't you calling the pot calling the kettle black?

 

Is the point of earning a badge and being at camp to LEARN and EXPLORE? or is it to do the required schoolwork, with as little depth and as much speed as possible, collect your 'report card' (the completed

badge card) and quickly go score up another?

 

we have to remember that there are SOME boys who are motivated by competition and they will push themselves to 'get as many as possible, as fast as possible' - they don't really care about the subject - they just want to up their scorecard. Then there are those whe really want a particular goal and are willing to work for it - they may spend all week doing saiboating - really, really well. Then there are those who only want to work on ONE area, Boating, or nature - and they don't particularly care if they do two requirements here and 4 for another badge there, as long as they are intensely involved in something.

 

I had one boy in camp this summer, who wants to be a chef - he took Cooking merit badge - which was a totaly different area of camp than the camp kitchen. yet every spare minute, he was in the kitchen, doing dishes, setting up - by the end of the week he was helping serve up meals. He had a ball! and learned far more than any badge requirements. Next summer he's applied for kitchen staff.

 

where is there room for these boys who 'hear their own drummer' in your micro-managed plan with all those adult sub-counselors?

[evmori 11]

"obtain from your SM a signed MB application and the name of a qualified counselor for that MB" it does NOT say that the SM "approves" the counselor."

 

Laura,

I don't think anyone ever said the SM approves the counselor. What was said is the if the SM knows an approved MB counselor "rubber stamps" merit badges, he has the option of assigning the Scout the name of another approved MB counselor. And actually, when the SM gives the Scout the blue card, the name of the approved MB counselor could already be on the blue card.

 

OGE,

In your example, the Scout gets his merit badge. Whether he actually earned it or not has nothing to do with it. If he didn't the loser here is the Scout.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[ScouterPaul 11]

Ed

Here are a couple of quotes concerning the SM approving the MBC.

 

FOG - "The SM has to approve of the choice of counselor and sign the blue card before the Scout can begin work."

 

evmori - "He meant the SM has the authority to assign an approved MB counselor of his choice. Right Mr. Fat Old Guy?"

 

FOG - "If I know that Mr. X just rubber stamps the Citizenship in America blue cards, I'll not allow any of my Scouts (yep, my Scouts) to use him for a counselor."

 

My Boy Scout Requirements book (which is one year out of date) states the following:

 

...your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors....

 

It doesn't state that the Scout must use that Counselor. "No additional requirements my be added."

 

If we have good relationships with the boys and have earned their respect they will most likely use the MBC that we provided them. But that is a different issue.

 

Paul