all is well with scouting, except a 30% decline in boys life subscriptions

[OneHour 11]

I can only speak for our Troop. So here it goes:

 

I have talked to the boys who left the troop and here are the reasons:

(age) and reason (best of my recollection)

 

- (13,15,16, 16) "I want to concentrate on baseball, football, basketball, and track."

- (15,15,16,16,) "I wish that the troop stayed the way it was ..." scoutmaster-run and twenty or so boys (another story for another day). Their parents did not like the new set of scoutmasters and the boy-lead program that we would like to have!

- (11,11,12) "I don't like scouting and I never did."

- (12,13) (from the parents) "My son needs to concentrate on his school. He is taking heavy load of honor classes and he is not doing well (something that I am considering for my oldest son right now)"

- 6 of them moved (1) out of the neighborhood, (3) to another part of Houston (3) to another state.

- 4 of the older scouts stayed dormant. Don't know the reason, but they show up from time to time.

- About 3 scouts never show up again after the first few meetings.

 

Again, currently, we have 72 boys and three new prospects showed up at our troop meeting, moved from another state. Yes, we have attrition as every troop has, but not one scout left for the reasons stated. Even our Advancement Chair who gave us his feedbacks on the BORs has not mentioned that the scouts are not happy with the "outdated" materials, styles, methods, uniforms, silly magazines, etc. What seems to be the one common request amongst the boys is more play time and the PLC obliged!

 

Will we ever have a need to survive in the wilderness? May be ... may be not. Will we ever have a need to cook, be independent, and lead others, you bet ya!

 

Take my job for example. I'm a networker. Why do I need to learn about 100 years old communication theories? Why do I need to learn 200 years old Calculus theories and practices? Why do I need to go through 200 years of US history and 2000 years of world history? Why do I need to go through College? Nowaday, I don't but what all of these old knowledge do is allow me to think and adapt to my future! Scouting teaches leadership through (granted) old method, techniques, and ideals, but these are fundamentals and the basis! After all, shedding the materialistic and concrete world, the boys will end up back to the basics of nature! Lastly, the old world scouting teaches them that there is still the outdoor and they can enjoy the outdoor whether they was in scouting for 1 campout or the entire time. I'm fairly sure that all fathers/mothers who got their sons into scouting have touched, been, heard about scouting before! As for the boys who got themselves into scouting without their parents suggesting which is the large portion of the cubs and transitioned webelos, then the old program has just sold itself!

 

1Hour

 

[brianbuf 10]

A few folks have missed my points completely.  Making huge assumptions like those of us who want to modernize scouting want to gut it.  Wrong.  Look at this line from the last post

"Will we ever have a need to cook, be independent, and lead others, you bet ya!"

Who said that we want scouting to change from these things?  Don't assume.

Rather, we want scouting to appeal to more kids without losing the values.  As one poster wrote, his words, not mine, scouting needs to be less "DORKY" 

If you read Scouter this month you might recall that packs that used the NASCAR promotion had an higher enrolment than packs who did not.  Many kids and parents think NASCAR is cool, and it attracted the kids.  Says right in the magazine.  This is a great example of scouting appealing to more kids.  Did they stop teaching values, cooking, to be independent, to lead others... no, they did not stop teaching these things.  Can Scouting be more modern and still be good, you betcha.

 then the old program has just sold itself! What, with declining enrolment, troops closing, and magazine subscriptions down 30% (while others are up)... how long are some folks going to be in denial.  A few adult leaders should say it like it is: "I like the old program I grew up with regardless if it kills the program or not."   How many more losses do we have to have for folks to say... hum, this ain't working... lets try something else.  (not change the values but the package).  Old program ain't woking!  In Utica, NY, enrolment is down 35.2% vs last year alone.  Lets wake up.

[Eagledad 2779]

Hi Brianbuf.

 

 

What is your scouting experience? About how old are you, give or take? What does Brianbuf stand for?

 

Thanks

 

Barry

[Trevorum 24]

I think Brian has a point. A couple of them, actually. Let's not shoot a messenger here. I believe he is a good Scouter who sincerely wants to stir some lively debate.

 

His thoughts about "outdated icons" holds a lot of merit, in my opinion. Symbols are powerful - for good or ill. Moreover, the meanings of symbols in a society changes over time. (The obvious example is the swastika, which was commonly used in BSA before 1934). Scouting in the USA carries a lot of symbol baggage and what worked in the 1950s or 1970s might not necessarily be effective today. The world is faster and more complex than a century ago when BP was creating Scouting. In my opinion, BSA has lagged behind in making Scouting relevant. The values may be timeless, but the delivery vector could use some work.

 

Take the uniform. Many posters on these forums have lamented the geekiness of the current uniform. In my limited experience, the uniform very definitely does work against recruiting and retention, both. If we are to be known as an outdoors oriented movement that offers adventure, perhaps a more outdoors/functional uniform would help. (And thank you, Irving, for the new zip-offs!). Anyone remember Nixon's "palace guard" uniforms? The men inside the daffy uniforms were still the same, but their image suffered terribly until Nixon got the message and dropped all the frou-frou.

 

Let's remember that our aim is to develop character, personal fitness, and citizenship in young men. Everything else is secondary.

[brianbuf 10]

Eagledad,

Thanks for the inquiry about who I am, but that is irrelvant to the message. I will tell you I have 4 boys, I was in scouting, I am retired, I am a leader in Venturing, and my name is Brian, and my WB patrol was the Buffalos. Sorry, I am not a buf weightlifter, rather a Buffalo. Not that any of this matters. Just got a membership report for a good leader... 2006 numbers... some units are up, some are down by 30-35%! Am I concerned about Scouting reaching kids, you bet. And yes, keeping the values... that is the whole point of scouting.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, so when someone looks like he's trollin', and his statistics don't pass the smell test, then we're probably out lookin' for gold in cow pies, eh?

 

Da Audit Board for Circulation monitors magazine circulation in a thorough way. See http://www.magazine.org/Circulation/circulation_trends_and_magazine_handbook/. Usin' their figures for the past 10 years on Boys' Life Circulation:

 

2005 1.221 M -.3%

2004 1.224 M -4.6%

2003 1.284 M -3%

2002 1.323 M +3.4%

2001 1.280 M -1.5%

2000 1.300 M - .6%

1999 1.307 M -1.8%

1998 1.331 M - .7%

1997 1.336 M

 

Durin' the whole period from 1997 to 2005, Boys Life had a circulation decline of 8.6%. Significant. Worth payin' attention to. But a far cry from 30%, eh?

 

Of course, don't let real data get in the way of a strongly held belief.

 

Even our Advancement Chair who gave us his feedbacks on the BORs has not mentioned that the scouts are not happy with the "outdated" materials, styles, methods, uniforms, silly magazines, etc.

 

But also in da bad data realm is surveyin' only your satisfied customers and sayin' "see - this customer still likes us, everything is OK." To get a real handle on the gradual drop in Scouting numbers, we have to talk to and listen to the boys who chose never to sign up, eh?

 

Yah, we all know if they came out campin' with us, the fun would override their aversion to da uniform. Once they understood what it meant, they might even like parts of it, eh? But it may well be that outdated symbols and dumb uniforms keep more kids from ever walkin' in the door, or botherin' to pick up a flyer.

[hops_scout 9]

I will be formulating an addition response later today, but I wanted to bring up a couple quick points...

 

First, the Boys Life-- Typically, I read one or two things in the magazine. The "Hitchin' Rack" and the "Scouts to the Rescue" or whatever it's called. Every now and then, I'll see an article that looks interesting, but I'm tired of the video games and such all the time.

 

Next, I'll address the "old symbols"-- I guess the USA needs to get rid of Old Glory too, I mean it's only, what, 230 years old? What about the Yankees uniform or the Red Sox uniform?

 

I'll post more details later, those two things are what popped out right away...

[Trevorum 24]

Hello Hops,

I think it's possible that you may have misunderstood my post about symbols. If you go back and re-read what I said, you'll find that I did not suggest that all symbols are bad or should be changed. What I tried to say was that the meaning of some symbols changes over time. Old Glory is clearly a symbol that strongly retains it's meaning and suggesting that it be scrapped is a ludicrous straw-man. (By contrast, the symbolic meaning of the Stars and Bars has substantially changed over time to the point where a majority of voters believe it is inappropriate as a state flag.) Now, don't jump to conclusions and infer that I am suggesting that any specific BSA symbolism is outdated. However, I think that Brian brings up a good issue. His point about "outdated icons" - as far as I understand it - is that the way BP packaged the aims of Scouting was more relevant to the boys of a century ago than the way BSA packages those Aims today.

[BrentAllen 10]

Trevorum,

I don't think you know what the Stars & Bars flag is. Google it. It is not what most people call the "Confederate" flag. The current Georgia flag is identical to the real Stars & Bars flag, with the addition of the State Seal on the canton. It was most assuredly voted on by a majority of our state.

 

brianbuf's website and posts here complaign the program doesn't offer what kids want, and that we adults run a program based on our desires, not theirs. Please explain to me how WB patrol names have anything to do with the boys. WB is adult leader training, so how will changing those names affect any boys?? That suggestion, and others, just don't make any sense.

 

BTW, the swastika was a religious Hindu symbol before it ever became associated with the Scouts. Rudyard Kipling used it to sign his books as well. Too bad it had to be ruined.

[Trevorum 24]

Brent, you are right of course. I was taking a shortcut in rhetoric which I should have realized would be spotted by all you eagle-eyed Georgians! Didn't mean to get your Georgia hackles up. You see my point though about the battle flag. And you are also right about the swastika being an ancient Hindu symbol. It was also a symbol among many Native American groups, which is why I suspect it was adopted by the early BSA. Perhaps it was inherited from Seton's Woodcraft Indians. I'm not sure; perhaps Kudu knows.

[Eamonn 61]

Thanks Beavah

I didn't think the number was correct, but wasn't sure where to go to find out the correct information.

 

I happen to like Boy's Life.

Even when I was a little Lad in that fair and pleasant land across the pond, I used to get my hands on the odd copy and thought how cool it was that American Scouts had their own magazine. We never did and even as a adult you had to buy and pay for Scouting Magazine.

OJ, never has been a fan of the Magazine. At one time he requested that he be taken off the mailing list, but the Troop was a 100% Boy's Life Troop.

Over the past couple of years I have seen the changes, I'm not so sure I like them? But am willing to admit that the magazine isn't aimed at an old codger like myself.

As a family we used to subscribe to a lot of Magazines. Her Who Must Be Obeyed ordered them from the Publishers Clearing House. You name it, and our Mailman delivered it!! Slowly we got away from it, mainly because we found we just weren't reading them. Now we are down to the Reader's Digest, Good Housekeeping, and a few Trade type magazines that seem to arrive for some unknown reason? -The Magazine Fairy?

Most of the stuff I used to read in Newsweek and Time can now be found on the web.

I dislike the Reader's Digest as it seems that they send almost as much junk mail as AAA seems to send out.

 

While I can't state it as a fact. There was a rumor that after some of the carry on about inflated membership numbers, some of the National Staff were looking at Boy's Life numbers and comparing them to the Council membership and if there was a big difference they seen this as a red flag. - Again I don't know how true this is or ever was.

 

It's very easy for us the people who serve at Unit, District and Council levels to point the finger and blame National for just about anything and everything.

I know that in the past I have had some concern about the age of the people who serve on the National Council.

While I like to think that I don't have one foot in the grave. I do notice that I'm the youngest member of our Area Committee and was one of the youngest on the Council Executive Board. I really have no idea what is happening in Grade Schools. But the National Council does have volunteers from all over working and looking at improving what is going on. Some of us might not like what they come up with, but that's always going to be the case.

The decline in membership has been noticed. I think that some steps have been taken to try and help stop the trend. I'll admit I only very quickly scanned the what it's called which is replacing Quality Awards till 2010. It seems to be a step in the right direction. The Race for Cub Scouts was a good idea, it just wasn't communicated very well.

 

I personally am not a great fan of how the Venturing Program is set up. But it is so open that it seems to if the youth members want address all the stuff that brianbuf

doesn't seem to like. Uniforms and that kind of thing.

 

Scouting does change and does make changes. Some of them don't sit very well with old folks like me. Some may be very necessary even if we don't like them.

I spent a little time yesterday talking with an old timer who was very upset that condoms were available at the World Jamboree (the last one.) He seen this as the end of Scouting as we know know it.

I'll admit that I would be very uneasy discussing safe sex with any of the youth members I serve, but with AIDS on the rampage, maybe in time it will be something that Scouting and the BSA will need to take a look at.

Looking back, the BSA seemed very slow to recognize how much computers would play a part in every day Scouting -Has it really taken this long for on line rechartering? Why were other volunteer led Scouting Sites doing what National should have been doing from the get go?

However once they did recognize it they seemed to really do a fairly good job. Even handing out fun games on CD's to first graders.

We are going through a time of great change.

We have a lot of adults who are those who have belong to the group:

Who hath smelt wood smoke at twilight?

Who hath heard the birch log burning?

Who is quick to read the noises of the night?

Let him follow with the others,

For the young mens feet are turning

To the camps of proved desire and known delight.

-- (Rudyard Kipling)

While others are going to camp laptop charged and ready for action.

Some of do believe that we need to keep the smell of wood smoke around, but we are not dumb enough to think that just the smell of wood smoke is going to hold the interest of the youth members we serve today and in the days to come.

Eamonn.

 

[Eagledad 2779]

>> Eagledad,

Thanks for the inquiry about who I am, but that is irrelvant to the message.

[evmori 11]

What does "dorky" mean?

 

I have never heard of a Scout quiting because he didn't like the uniform.

 

The uniform, while a method, is cosmetic. Scouting can be done without a uniform.

 

Brian,

Do you have any suggestions to the real program part of Scouting?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Brian,

 

Greetings!

 

During this and a few other strings you have been offended at what fellow Scouters have said.

 

"Seems like you are following me around to every thread, attacking me. The above is below the belt. It seems to me you are a terrible example of the values scouting teaches. Dissagree, yes, but you did not need to personally attack me. You are out of line."

"Looks like some folks fear they are loosing the battle so they are attacking me personally, which should never ever happen on a scouting board. SHAME ON THEM!"

 

 

But equally here are some insulting comments from you.

 

"Ding ding ding, we have a winner!"

"Ding Ding Ding, we have another winner."

"It seems to me you are a terrible example of the values scouting teaches."

 

You have even quoted me during a string ....

Brian stated "If some of you want to bury your head in the sand and keep scouting "the way YOU like it" you will watch it dry up around you. Someone above wrote "While I'm not excited over the Bee Keeping Merit Badge, I am happy that there is now Cinematography and Computers Merit Badges. I enjoy that the Climbing Merit Badge now has climbing towers and artificial climbing walls. " Scouting is NOT about what we leaders like."

 

You seemed to have missed the my comments about an attractive program (i.e. Snorkeling, Scuba, Freestyle Bicycling, Caving, Whitewater Canoeing, Snowboarding, Surfing, Tubing, Rollerblades, and Motorized Off Road Bikes). It appears while you were stating that I have my head in the sand. Ouch! Was that an insult directed at me? You missed the attraction of a merit badge program with climbing walls and climbing towers. Also, new merit badges being included each year.

 

If you view the Council Commissioners Top Ten List for 2005,

it was stated a thought called "Roots and Wings", keeping our roots in some tradition while encouraging wings for our adult leadership to keep Scouting relevant and look at a changing world. A year before you went to Wood Badge and started this thread, Scouting has been working to keep relevant.

 

Brian said "Scouting should not be about what we like as adult leaders. The kids should always come first. I am not getting much push back from kids, just adults!" Then it seems you contradicted what you said in this post "The danger, of course, is to not forget that scouting is first about the boys, second about what we like."

 

While there are many more Scouts are online these days and many may even have their own personal computer or laptop in their room, I believe the majority of registered users on this blog are adult Scouters. I don't believe many youth have registered to use this page. There have been just a few older Scouts (SPL's and JASM's) over the recent years.

 

Brian, If you have registered to use this Scouter.com weblog to interview Scouting youth, you are probably conducting your surveys in the wrong website. I say this just due to the low population of youth Scouts registering to use this blog. If you desire to survey youth, which is a good idea. This forum is probably not the best method to do it. I would recommend beginning with a reputable research and survey firm.

 

Such as, the Louis Harris and Associates, have done just a few focus groups on Scouts (and non Scouts) to find what they thought about Scoutings Values.

 

You stated that Scouts should be conducting focus groups. Rick Cronk was quoted in USA Today interview. "We're spending a lot of research money and time talking to kids of different backgrounds and their parents to figure out what gets those kids excited ... and what parents want. The people in the program already enjoy it. It's a matter of introducing ourselves to these constituents."

 

While I haven't conducted surveys, I do run into Scouts and families (and former Scouts and their families) at the high school sports games, cruising the mall stores or in the park. Of the few youth that have departed our Troop and Crew, they seemed to state they did enjoyed the fun program and friendship, while the parents removed them from the Troop and Crew because of homework or grades. Then again.. maybe they are telling me what I want to hear, who really knows.

 

I do think that most every Scouter will agree with you, that the (Scouts) program should come first. I don't know of anyone that would disagree. The program should allow young adults to build character, physical fitness and citizenship.

 

I would disagree with you about a comment; In my, Crew21 Adv, opinion; Scouting is about what all Scouts like, the youth, the adults, the parents and the Charterting Organizations. We would not have any Scouting if it were not for the Chartering Organizations and their ideals. I seriously don't believe we would have any membership if the program were not attractive and relevant to the parents of our youth.

 

Just in our own numbers in December of 2005 Scouting had reported 2.9 million youth and 1.1 million adults. I see that at just over a quarter percent adult leadership or one Scouter per three Scouting youth. My opinion again, I would expect Scouting is partially what the adult Scouters like and our Chartering Organizations like (as well as what the youth we serve like). As you said, "to not forget that scouting is first about the boys, second about what we like."

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21_Adv

 

[SSScout 1615]

"all politics is local" (are local?)

 

Scouting is not going to dissapear any time soon, but as an influence on the young (and wow, I used to be a young), it's influence has been eroded. How? TV and other media has contributed to this decline. Where the child got his skills, interests and values (there's that word again) from the family, now he (and she!) get alot of it from the flash and dash of the litle screen (and the big screen). The parents that ALLOW the screen to be a prime source, without challenge, ("now why did Homer say that?") OR LIMIT ("no, our family does not support the ideas presented by that show because...") end up wondering why the kids act the way they do. What is the childs example?

 

Scouting ( Cub, Boy, Explorer, etc.) in some communities USED to be the "only game in town". We had a Cub Scout softball league, very big deal here. , No more. And I don't speak of only TV. Now, since the kid can't always "make the team" at school, they now have a choice of (in our town) community basketball, football, soccer ( yeah, I coached my daughters team),wrestling, baseball, LLeague (seperate!), chess, AND track. And more. Some churches do not support Scouting, where they used to. Some churches have created their own Scout type program, because...

 

Personal story: Our Cub pack had a big recruit push and 14 families signed up for Tigers! We had a get together meeting and 12 showed up. (called the others,and were told, "we're just not interested anymore". a week later?) At the meeting, boys taken aside and had some crafts and Scout games. Laughs and fun. Parents in the other room, talked about program. Dues not a problem. Uniform not a problem. Tigers equal parents come to meetings, go on trips together. Program laid out , monthly meetings, go to firehouse, zoo, train model display, little hike thru park,etc., pack meeting. Tigers rewarded with "paws" and beads. One parent take lead for one month. Lots of head nodding. Need one parent to be the phone tree start, but Pack leaders will take care of the rest. NOT ONE parent would sign up. NOT ONE. We had no Tigers that year. our DE commiserated with us. CM followed up. DE followed up. No thank yous all around.

Not the religious issue (not this time... another story there). not the uniform issue. Not the badge and rank issue. To a man (woman?) all said " I don't have the time for this if Johnny is going to do the soccer/football/karate/care for parrots/choir/pcgames that I know he loves".

 

Same year (not so long ago) we recruited 3 bears. One was the son of a Life scout dad who was shipped out to Iraq. His mom then said," I'm sorry, but we just won't have the time."

Of the other two Bears, one went on and is now a Scout. The other went into Pop Warner football and baseball and Church camp AND...

 

Long story short, when time came for CM to move on with son into Scouts, Pack parents were given months of warning. No one would go to training. One parent offered (seriously) to pay the CM to continue on as CM. Pack folded. Cubs transferred to other packs, or dropped out. DE and RD beat bushes and covered the elementary school (very cooperative principal, thank you). No one expressed any interest. Now, the Pack is still listed on the rolls of the District, but no enrollment, no CM, and the charter org is still listed.

 

DEs want more UNITS ( so I have read here) BUT... AIN"T NO UNITS WITHOUT SCOUTS. (or is there?)

 

DO RECRUIT SCOUTS, BUT ALSO RECRUIT PARENTS.

 

It is all tied together. Time, society, soccer, parents, somewhere the boy/girl has to be included too.

 

Do the boys enjoy Cubbing? Yep. Do the parents think the boys enjoy Cubbing? Some admitted to it, some, Dunno.

Did the boys enjoy Boy's Life? Sure did. Did the Parents enjoy Boy's Life? Dunno.

Does my boy enjoy camping and hiking and seeing new stuff? Sure do, he told me, 'cept for the bullies and name callers in the Troop. Gotta speak to the SM about them. Very un Scoutlike. Does the Scout Promise and Law mean anything to him? Sure does. He tells me it's the part that is the most frustrating, the ideal that I encourage him to follow that the rest of the world doesn't seem to.

So I asked him (a real live Scout) "why do boys join Scouts?" his answer was, quote,"some boys like it, some boys don't. Some boys parents MAKE'M join." So, there you have it. Sociologists aside, in a nut shell, unvarnished truth, from the horses(uh, Scouts) mouth.

 

The Scout Troop Parents are a self selected group. They DO participate, because their son (or daughter... Venturers) wants them too and the parent sees a benefit for their son. Recruit the son but you have to recruit the parent too.

 

 

Oops... Gotta go to work...

My time is up, I thank you for yours.

 

YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)