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Fraud in Membership numbers

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I have received a couple of PM's putting me on notice that if I start down this path my membership will be revoked.


I have to ask if it is worth my scouts suffering to try to fix something that no one else seems to think is broken.



The entire BSA organization is corrupt from what I am seeing. Well, my unit has no fluff in it, we spend 100% of our funds on scouting. Beyond that I have my doubts.



I will run a Friends of Pack 123 instead of FOS, Fund our Salary

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My thoughts, and this is from someone who has seen it all.


1) We need more district level scouters who care, especially UCs, who are willing to hold the DEs to the fire. I know it was talking to my discom that I found out we had problems. They not only held me accountable, they went out of my way to help me fix the problem. Did it cause some friction with upper management, not at first b/c I was doing the job and getting things done. But once some units were not rechartered, or their charters changed to Learning for Life as it should have been, then it caused problems and I eventually quit. But if it wasn't for the district volunteers, and more importantly my brand new wife who was also a volunteer, supporting me in doing the right thing, It would have been worse.


Also I know of one case where an observant district commissioner was able to spot a few ghosts, real ones and not ones that were rechartered to keep the youth registered and active as possible until the bulk of the leaders got back from a deployment. Long story short he was able to get the problem solved.


2)We need UCs that do the job of visiting units, advising as needed, and helping with recharter. A good UC doing his job can spot the ghosts. If we used volunteers more in the recharter process than pros, the temptation is lessened.


3)We need to take some pressure off the pros about membership. Yes organizations need to grow, but IMHO a good program is what keeps folks involved. I've heard from a pro in a different membership oriented non-profit that he had similar problems with his organization. Problem was his folks were dying off, and few are eligible for membership.


4)Make the sacrifices to clean up ASAP, and start form scratch. This is the difficult part and can have major repercussions. But I think it is worth it.


5) Another option is to bust butt to restart a few of these units, and it can take a lot of work, or start new units and transfer the charter to the new CO and unit.


But as mentioned, BSA national has come up with ways to prevent this from happening again.



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I think its not at all accurate to say "no one else seems to think is broken.", with thinking like that its easy to lapse into the state of seeing oneself as the lone protector of the true and pure spirit of scouting. We had a guy like that around here awhile ago, got so he was so abusive to anyone who thought other than he, he had to go away.


I don't doubt what BD is saying, it happens. I was on the Council's Exective Board for three meetings. The first meeting was in January, it was FOS time and I was expected to pledge my share and they had no problem telling me what that share was. I did have a problem and told them they would get what I could afford. The next meeting they announced a capital fund drive and how many of the foundations in the area they were after to get dollars wanted to see how much the COuncil Board had pledged as they didnt want to give money to an organization whose own board was not on board with their own capital fund. The third meeting I resigned from the Board when there was talk of a campaign to raise money to fix the Dam at one of the camps. The Dam did get fixed, but I certainly could not afford to help them with the numbers they were talking. LEarned in those 3 months what scouting was about and it sure wasnt outing, unless yo consider outing cash from my pocket.


I feel content, I know in about 3-5 years council size will sky rocket as more states become one council, councils merge, Professionals become fewer and we see less of them. Scouting will go back to its roots, neighborhood kids doing stuff and little interference from those higher up as they will be so high up as to be invisible.


So, its not a case of people not caring or thinking its not a problem, its allowing the course to be run so we can get to the way its supposed to be.


(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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I think the root cause of these types of issues goes back to "accountability." Who are the professional staff accountable to? As I understand it, only Chartered Organizations have "voting power" at a council level - thus only they have the ability to collectively set goals, guidelines, and provide oversight of the professional staff. Seeing as most COs aren't interested into getting too involved at a council level, the professional staff has very limited accountability to individual units in the council.


This, in my opinion, is just one of several deficiencies of the "chartered partner" model, but I don't see how problems like the ones BD frequently brings up can change unless the standards of accountability also change.



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Be careful of what you say on the interwebs, always.


I wish Beavah were on this thread...


As for me...


As a unit serving Scouter, I worry about my unit. If a Scout pays the unit fees (and let's be honest, unit fees are far more than BSA's membership/Boy's Life fee), then he/she is on my books, and I will report him as such at charter time.


As a District serving Scouter, when I visit a unit, I count noses. I put that number on UVTS. It's a spot report.


The day I find my Professionals being other than hard straight arrows on membership and finance is the day I will no longer be a Scouter. I choose to be an adult in Scouting, vice Kiwanis, Rotary, Masonic, and so on. I want to be with men and women of integrity.

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John - Maybe. But, then again, why are those that actually do have direct contact with youth - who are directly carrying out the organizations mission - excluded from having a say at the council or national level?

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John I posted about no free events in our district anymore.


Three Packs were going to get together and the DE showed up at the event and told us we had to charge a district fee for the event. Because two Packs cannot do a joint event PERIOD, more than one pack it becomes a district event.


I don't believe our DE is playing with our membership numbers.....He is a straight arrow. But all about membership numbers and the money.

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John - I think discussion of the CO model in a separate issue. I know it's been discussed before, but a spun thread couldn't hurt.


But, pertaining to this thread, it just seems odd to me that the BSA and local councils affording "voting rights" only to a group of people who generally show little to no interest in exercising that privilege, while denying the privilege to "direct contact" dues paying volunteers. As a result, the professional staff is not being held accountable to the dues paying members in the organization.

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The two or more packs together = a council event is not a local thing, but national. Found that one out last year when a bunch of CS leaders attended out first ever class on CS camping at the council level,sorry forgot what it's called, and discovered that there are national standards, procedures etc that need to be followed when runngin one of those events.


Needless to say it was a very interesting training.

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BD, I might be of the mind to have the event, not charge anything and dare the DE to do something about it. What is he going to do, refuse to charter 2-3 units because you held a group event and didnt pay a Distrct Fee? If he doesnt recharter you, you have 2-3 packs already formed for BD's Rangers or some other name. WHo knows, in the future forums may talk about what did B-D mean when he said the boys should lead themselves?

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ya know OGE I am tired of it.


My boys deserve so much better than what we have. We should be able to go to the camporee and measure themselves against the other scouts, no district camporee's. My Cubs should be able to go to a district cub event like webelos woods, we don't offer that.


I don't complain at roundtable or storm around making a fuss. I had issues with the district committee but that was in a private meeting behind closed doors. I have spoken to no one about it except the SM. So I don't stand around the coffee pot at roundtable complaining.


The district committee people can't look me in the eye, but that's not from me pounding my fist on the table making a fuss.


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