Who supports Whom?

[BrotherhoodWWW]

The topic this is spun from has me thinking. Are we asking the wrong question here? Our local councils get our support as long as we partake in popcorn sales and/ or any other council wide fundraising efforts regardless of the fact if we attend their camps. I believe that the councils are there to support the units not the other way around. Attending an Out of Council summer camp or high adventure program seems like a reasonable choice to be made by each unit. My current unit chooses an OCC each year and has since it was started. I do hope to change this practice or at the very least offer to the youth the opportunity to decide if they would rather an in-council camp.

 

As I understand it, keep in mind this is second hand information, the founders for my son's troop moved here from a larger council. When they started our troop they decided to attend the camp of their previous council since they had a hand in building the camp. For several years our troop would have OA elections at camp (OCC) and the candidates would then go through the Ordeal OOC and be accepted as members of an OOC Lodge. Aparently this resulted in some hard feelings within our Council's Lodge and may have been partly responsible for the stated policy against such things. For the past several years prior to this year our troop was ignored by the local Lodge when we asked for an election. I've only heard one side of the story so there may in fact be some facts that are not know to me and others. There could have been problems with in our lodge that allowed our troop to be missed rather than any kind of hard feeling retribution sort of thing. I do not know. It all is water under the bridge since we now have new people in place at the council, lodge, chapter and troop levels.

 

In closing I believe that at all levels of the BSA adminstration the focus needs to be on serving the Youth of our Nation.

[hops_scout]

WWW, I'd have to agree with you about the council and higher should be supporting the troops rather than vice versa.

[Beavah]

I'd have to agree with you about the council and higher should be supporting the troops rather than vice versa.

 

Yah, but that ain't the corporate culture, eh?

 

Especially if, as in most councils, the CORs and the volunteers don't aggressively control the board.

 

A good thing to do as a SM and/or a committee chair is to take your DE to lunch at least once a year. Just to allow him to talk to yeh about what life is really like in the office, where the time is really spent, what his evaluation and job really depends on, eh?

 

That ain't just the BSA of course. Plenty of organizations where it seems like things exist to serve the upper levels, not vice versa. It's the norm, rather than the exception.

 

B

 

[packsaddle]

Councils are a collective. Recently I was able to intercept one of their transmissions...it was revealing:

"We are BSA, existence as you have known it is over, you have been assimilated, your future is over, your past never existed, resistance is futile, from this time forward you will serve...us."

[dScouter15]

I think it needs to work both ways. The council supports units by providing insurance coverage, legal standards, camping properties, summer camp, training opportunities, record keeping (how effectively is another story...), and other services. However, the money and other resources needed to do this don't come out of nowhere! Units help support the council by fundraising and participating in council activities. Individual scouters also contribute by, for example, staffing training and camp events, or providing maintenance work for the council properties. For the relationship to work, both sides need to contribute to get any benefit. Its also worth noting that you and your scouts are MEMBERS of your council - its not just the professional staff, or the "super-scouters" on all the high-falootin' committees!

 

As far as the specific issue of whether or not attending out of council summer camps is a problem... I don't think so. However, you might consider WHY your troop chose to not attend your council's facility. Some reasons might be able to be fixed (eg, "Camp XYZ has more modern facilities, or more high adventure opportunities, or a higher quality MB program). Perhaps concerned scouters such as yourself could work with the council staff in correcting some of these issues. Other issues (eg, Camp XYZ's location allows us to participate in some specialized programs or trips) can't be fixed, and the council just has to work around that.

[scoutldr]

"Its also worth noting that you and your scouts are MEMBERS of your council - its not just the professional staff, or the "super-scouters" on all the high-falootin' committees!"

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think this is correct. Scouts and unit scouters are members of their Unit, which is "owned" by the Chartering Organization. THe Council is an independent not for profit corporation. The only "members" of the Council are the members of the Executive Board (which includes the CORs) who hire the Council "CEO", the SCout Executive. He/She in turn hires the rest of the professional staff and office employees. We are "customers" of the Council, not members. If you were a member, you would have a vote.

 

That's why most councils run roughshod over the volunteers...the ones with the power to vote (CORs), don't bother to participate. (Sound familiar?)

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I have studied Management, I even have an MPA (Master of Public Administration). I need to point out that studying Management and being a good manager are not necessarily related. But one concept has stuck with me throughout all these years.

 

In any business there are Line Workers and Staff workers. Line Workers are the employees who actually do the work of the bussiness. For a Car Assembly Plant, they are the ones who work the "line" and assemble the cars. In an Accounting company, they are the ones who actually do the accounting. They produce the product/service the company sells. Then there are the Staff workers. These are positions that originally existed to support the Line Workers. Positions such as Personnel Managers, to hire and research benefit packages amoung other duties comes to mind. The Payroll Department, to make sure everyone gets paid on time, and in the correct amount.

 

Now, you will be able to tell where I have usually worked

 

Problems in Industries occur when the Staff positions control the business rather than the Line. A Staff worker may have a position in the Auto industry, the healthcare industry and in an Utility company in his career and never actually do anything different because they dont have to understand the product. Companies that traditionally do the best have people who understand their product leading them. Companies that have people who have a Staff Background in high management can struggle unless the management staff is in touch with its product

[AvidSM]

The Units and Council are like two orphaned siblings arguing over who is their mother's favorite.

 

By the book, the executive staff is supposed to support (and is accoutable to) the Scout Executive, who supports the Executive Board, which include the CORs, who are accountable to (support) the CO.

 

Also, by the book, the direct-contact volunteer leader is accoutable to the committee, which is accountable to the CO/COR.

 

So, by the way it is formally set up, both sides support and are accountable to the CO and not to each other. The CO (and the boys and parents within it's charter) are, in a sense, the customer.

 

But, in reality, the CO/COR's do next to nothing to direct the behavior of neither the Units nor Council. This results in both sides assuming empowerment, doing what they believe is in the best intrests of the CO.

 

Council then looks for finacial support and compliance from the units, believing that they are more knowlegable and therefore are more empowered. The units want council to support the program as they see it and believe their direct contact with the CO makes them more empowered. This creates friction between the volunteers and the executives.

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

Good analysis, Avid.

[BadenP]

This is the old chicken and egg argument that has been hashed over in here countless times.

 

The council and the units are co dependant on each other if you plan to deliver a good program with adequate facilities and training. To blame the CORs for bad scout executives is laughable and plain untrue. If the SM, CM et al got to know their COR, which by the way they are supposed to do, they would have a say in council. If your COR is weak then it is a pretty good indicator the whole unit leadership is weak. An SE comes into a new council and the first thing he wants to know is who are the movers and shakers in the community and he tries to recruit them onto the Exec. board to insure him the financial support he needs. As a fomer DE and Senior DE I watched this occur with no less than three new SE's to the same council in four years. IT IS A MYTH THAT THE COR'S ELECT THE SE, yes they are supposed to have a vote, but are rarely informed by the council exec board of these meetings, so they the elite of the board do the selection in most councils, that is a fact not a myth. They want to maintain control of the council.

 

You unit leaders have more power than you think but most are too lazy to get to know their COR and thats your own fault no one else. Most COR's never go to a training to learn about their obligations and that too is the fault of the council and unit leaders for not developing a relationship and keeping them informed. As a trained COR almost all of the executive board meetings I have attended there has never been a real major issue to vote on usually the issue comes up stating a committee has done a study and concluded that for example the camp kitchen needs a new stove because the old one is near the end and it is a rubber stamp vote. After a number of these kind of meetings most of the COR's get bored and stop attending these meetings. By the way even though most councils are separate entities they all fall under the overall protective umbrella of National and they are the ones who have the most influence with the councils and SE's.

 

So if you are going to cry and moan and cast blame get your facts straight and your COR's trained and active in your council. You concentrate on program and keeping your kids in scouts.(This message has been edited by BadenP)