scoutingagain 20 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Gee, when I first typed the word "followership" I wasn't sure it was even a word. SA Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 OGE, Patton, MacArthur, et al had to have been good followers or they wouldn't have been around for as long as they have. All you know of are Pattons exploits as a General. What was his behavior like as a 2nd Lt? Those at the top usually are give much more latitude than those at the bottom. As for Custer's uniforms, back in 19th Century, officers' uniforms were usually anything but uniform. Link to post Share on other sites
dan 10 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I have been watching this thread and as far as I can tell trying to relate scouting to soldiers, politicians, etc. does not relate to scouting. A good leader will never follow. A good leader will assign the patrol member a job, lets say fire builder, if the leader follows this guy around to watch him build a fire, he is not a good leader. And the fire builder is not following he is leading himself. The patrol member is not following an order he is carrying out his assignment. I do not look on it as the patrol member is following a order to build a fire, he is doing the job that was assigned to him. The only time I can think that it would be okay to follow in Scouts would be on a hike. I think follower has 2 meanings. First would be the bad leader SM would tell the patrol member to build a fire and than the SM would go get the tinder, firewood, matches and the scout would be right behind him mimicking his every move. Second would be the person that follows the BSA AIMS or follows the teachings of the Bible, etc.. I do not see how the words leader and follower go together unless bad is in front of leader. Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Looked up the word follower and found the following two definitions among others One who subscribes to the teachings or methods of another an ordinary person who accepts the leadership of another So dan, a bad leader follows the aims of the BSA? And so does a bad follower? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 (This message has been edited by evmori) Link to post Share on other sites
dan 10 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Oh boy know we can discuss ordinary! I say that there are no ordinary scouts! Ed Good one! it made me smile.(This message has been edited by dan) Link to post Share on other sites
acco40 95 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Where you lead, I will follow Anywhere that you tell me to If you need, you need me to be with you I will follow where you lead -Carole King Sorry, after reading this thread, I couldn't get that song out of my head. Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I heard a line on "West Wing" last night that made me laugh and think of this thread. It was, "what do you call a leader without any followers? A guy taking a walk." LOL But seriously, I don't think anyone responded to my earlier post where I asked why we call ourselves leaders if we are supposed to reject the idea of followers? One suggests the other. Is BSA using the term "leader" out of context? Also, I know my other post was long and points you off to another website, but it is very relevant to the discussion in this thread. I hope people will at least take a look at it and comment. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Acco, that's funny because I start singing (only in my head, fortunately for those around me) a different song when I see the title of this thread. I guess it is called "Try to remember," where the singers repeat the word "follow, follow, follow." I guess it was by some folk-singing group, maybe it was in some movie too. Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Just a couple of thoughts. I have an agenda to do before our District meeting. The more I think about it the more I know that if I were to stand up and yell "Charge!!" No one would move. I like to think that I when it comes to leadership there are those who will buy into what I'm trying to do. Why do they do that? Maybe they trust me. Maybe we share the same or a very similar vision. Maybe I have done well selling the idea of where we are going. I don't see myself as the "Great White Hunter." I don't look at them as followers. They are active participants. We share a vision, we set a goal and we work together to reach it. At times my only role maybe to bring together a team who will share the vision and get the job done. As to the title of Leader. I have to admit to being happier with the title Scout Leader then Scoutmaster. But that is just an Eamonn quirk. If we were to rename or retitle the "Job?" I'm not sure what it might be. Scout Manager? Troop Manager? I don't think that I like manager and I sure as heck don't like Supervisor. How about Director? No. I think it has a dictatorial ring to it. Trainer? We might be getting warm. But something is missing. As I say I have to rush. But will give this some thought. Eamonn Link to post Share on other sites
Fat Old Guy 11 Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 "A good leader will never follow. " A good leader often follows. He assigns tasks based on the strenghts of his followers and then, if needed, takes direction from that person. Kowalski, you're our best shot. I need you to get that sniper. Okay, L.T.. I'd like to take Ruggio with me as a spotter. Ruggio! You're with Kowalski. Here the Lt. gave Kowalski a task and then accepted his suggestions. Leadership and followership together. Now Ruggio goes off with Kowalski and follows his direction but in turn offers leadership by telling Kowalski what he sees and how he needs to adjust his fire. Again, leadership and followership together. Link to post Share on other sites
Zahnada 11 Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 Eamonn, Excellent post. However, I can think of a few guys in my troop who would actually jump up if you yelled "Charge!" But your point is well taken. I really like the term you used. Instead of "follower" (which in my opinion, can be seen as a passive job), you said "active participant." I also like the naming game for jobs you started. I would like to say that Troop Guide and Instructor are two of the most properly named functions in the troop. Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 NJCubScouter The song "Try to Remember" is from the musical "The Fantasticks" Try to remember the kind of September When life was slow and oh, so mellow. Try to remember the kind of September When grass was green and grain was yellow. Try to remember the kind of September When you were a tender and callow fellow. Try to remember, and if you remember, Then follow... Try to remember when life was so tender That no one wept except the willow. Try to remember when life was so tender That dreams were kept beside your pillow. Try to remember when life was so tender That love was an ember about to billow. Try to remember, and if you remember, Then follow... Deep in December, it's nice to remember, Altho' you know that snow will follow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember, Without a hurt the heart is hollow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember The fire of September that made us mellow. Deep in December our hearts should remember, And follow... Anyway, so my examples were a burst, I can accept that. So are we saying to be a good leader, one must be a good follower, and it takes ctitical thinking ability to know when to lead and when to follow? Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Zahnada Thanks. I had forgot Guide. I like that one a lot. Not so keen on Instructor. When I was a Scout a good many of the Scoutmasters were addressed as Skip. This being a shortened form of Skipper. I always fancied myself as a Skip. It had a nice ring to it and wasn't too formal. But it never happened. I think it might still be used a lot down under. At the District meeting tonight I was letting everyone know that the nominating committee had been working and there were some changes in the pipeline. One being that we had found a person who had agreed to be my successor. I said that he would be the District Vice Chair. Someone asked if the vice chair would out rank the District Commissioner? While we all know that the DE, District Commissioner and District Chair. Work as a team and form the key3.I had never given any thought to anyone holding a "Rank" Or outranking. Each and every person in Scouting is doing what he can. I know at times that I have to give myself a kick in the pants, when I start to judge others and their commitment to the program. If you give this some thought it makes the definition between Leaders and followers really hard. I don't outrank you. I'm not your boss. But if you want you can come along and join in with what we are doing. Eamonn Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 dan, I was serious because you posted "First would be the bad leader SM would tell the patrol member to build a fire and than the SM would go get the tinder, firewood, matches and the scout would be right behind him mimicking his every move. Second would be the person that follows the BSA AIMS or follows the teachings of the Bible, etc.. I do not see how the words leader and follower go together unless bad is in front of leader." What I get from this is a bad leader follows the BSA AIMS and teachings of the bible! I hope I am incorrect. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to post Share on other sites
Rooster7 11 Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Leader and follower do not belong together??? Did I hear right? Someone is trying to redefine the English language here. I understand the points made by Bob White and Dan, but I cannot agree with the idea that we should divorce these two terms - or put a negative connotation on leader when using it in conjunction with follower. That's really ridiculous. These are complementary words. They are mutually inclusive. The use of one logically proclaims the existence of the other. If there is a teacher, there must also be a student. If there is a doctor, there must also be a patient. Perhaps, one can argue as to what the leader should encourage the follower to embrace but certainly an effective leader knows how to create followers. Otherwise, hes not a leaderHes just a resounding gong waiting for someone to acknowledge his message. A leader inspires people to become followers, to learn and to follow his example*. *Note, follow his example does not necessarily mean imitate his every step or thought. It means imitate him to the degree that it is applicable to the lesson. If a SM teaches his Scouts to be reverent and sets the example by showing them what he does within his faith, it does not mean the Scouts must convert to his faith. The Scoutmasters example should be demonstrating his level of commitment and devotion to God. This is what the Scouts should be imitating not his specific religious practices. A good leader and mentor will make this clear. Nevertheless, to say leader and follower do not belong together is straight out of 1984. Its not only illogical; its kind of scary that someone would embrace that kind of thinking. (This message has been edited by Rooster7) Link to post Share on other sites
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