Question for Bob White

[acco40 95]

FYI, the CO for our troop is an Episcopal church. However, none of the members of the troop belong to that church. We perform service projects for the church, attend Scout Sunday at the church and have a good relationship with the church.

 

I have no idea what the thoughts of the majority of the congregation at the church are wrt this topic. But I do not feel that it will impact our relationship with them and/or their relationship with the BSA.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" But I do not feel that it will impact our relationship with them and/or their relationship with the BSA."

 

Until they hire a lesbian priest who wants to become an ASM.

 

 

[saltheart 10]

Something's wrong here. Look at the thread title. Look who hasn't posted....

 

Bob, you out there? Or have we inadvertently said everything that you might have? Sorry if we did...the question was posed to you and we didn't wait.

 

Go figure...enthusiasm does it every time.

[mk9750 11]

Salt,

 

I've noticed the same thing. As a matter of fact, he has been absent from all of the threads for a few days. Any chance the other "Bob White" thread has something to do with his absence?

 

Hopefully he's at summer camp or something. But if you remember, he talked about not posting publicly the last time things got ugly between him and another poster. I hope he didn't leave this time.

 

Mark(This message has been edited by mk9750)

[NJCubScouter 1389]

In thinking about the whole current issue involving the Episcopal Church (concluded, at least for this specific issue, by last night's vote), it really is irrelevant to any issue involving the BSA. The issue was not whether Episcopal churches may have openly gay priests. (I believe that is the correct terminology for Episcopalians, priests rather than ministers.) They have had openly gay priests for years, although evidently there are still a number of church leaders who do not believe that should be the case. The issue before the church this week was whether an openly gay man (who already was a priest), who had been elected (or nominated) a bishop by his statewide leadership group (again I am way weak on the terminology here) should be confirmed as a bishop by the national church body. I do not think the BSA cares, or would have any reason to care, what rank in the clergy of a church is held by an openly gay person. If the BSA was potentially going to care about something, it would be about one or both of two situations:

1. The religious organization (as a whole, on a national level if the faith has a national level) has openly gay clergy AT ALL (regardless of the rank they hold), when some units within that organization (meaning the local church, synagogue, temple, mosque, whatever) are serving as chartered organizations for BSA packs, troops, teams or crews.

2. The particular local church, synagogue, etc. is a CO and also is led by an openly gay clergyman, um, clergyperson.

 

To see the effect of the difference between 1 and 2, look at the Episcopal Church as a whole. It has some gay priests. Based on newspaper articles I have read about this current issue, there are a few openly gay priests in the State of New Jersey. In fact, on the front page of my local daily paper this morning was a photo of an Episcopal priest of a church in a town near mine, with a caption saying that he is openly gay (and that the person standing next to him in the photo is his "partner" and also active in the church.) But let's a assume for a moment that none of these particular local churches, with openly gay priests, are CO's for BSA units. (I have no idea whether any of them are or not.) Does the BSA prohibit ANOTHER local Episcopal church, whose priest is NOT gay, from being a CO, because the national organization admits gay priests? I think the answer to that is: No. If the answer was yes, there would be no units chartered to Episcopal churches, or Reform Jewish congregations, or to local units of any of several other religious denominations or movements. (The Reform Jewish situation is admittedly a bit more complicated, because there is no overall "authority." Each individual congregation can hire anyone it wishes to be its rabbi, though the vast majority (if not all) will only hire someone who has been ordained by one of the recognized seminaries. The nationwide organizations of rabbis (of which there are more than one, even within each of the three major "movements" within Judaism) can do nothing more than make recommendations, and the recommendation of the largest Reform organization is that congregations should not prohibit an openly gay person, otherwise qualified, from being their rabbi. Most congregations within that organization would not do so anyway, which makes sense because it is their representatives who adopted the recommendation in the first place. Interestingly, all of Judaism is representated to the BSA by a single Jewish Committee on Scouting, though the three main branches of Judaism have vastly different viewpoints on gay rabbis, gay "unions" and all other related subjects. Reform organizations submitted (or joined in) a "friend of the court" brief to the U.S. Supreme Court supporting the plaintiff in the Dale case, while Orthodox organizations were part of a brief supporting the BSA's position.)

 

Which leads to the question that I have asked a couple of times now and have not heard a definitive answer: What about the CO that is a place of worship that DOES have an openly gay minister, priest, rabbi or whatever? In other words, Whatevertown Episcopal Church or Congregation Beth Whatever is the CO for a Boy Scout troop, and the priest or rabbi is openly gay. (As I have said, this is probably not all that likely to happen, but I suspect there are a few places where it has.) The openly gay religious leader's name will be on the charter as IH. If the IH is willing to sign the charter agreement that says his/her place of worship will abide by all BSA policies, etc. (including the "policy" (really an interpretation of the Oath and Law) prohibiting openly gay leaders), will the BSA have a problem with this? Does the current "policy" prohibit it? Does anyone know of a situation where this has taken place?

 

(Incidentally, the largest organization of Reform Jewish rabbis has recommended to its members that they NOT agree to charter BSA units because of the gay policy. I suspect that, as a result, the number of Reform Jewish congregations that charter BSA units is small and decreasing, though probably not zero at this point. I find the whole thing regrettable for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that if the current situation existed back in 1938, I suspect that my father (who got his 65-year pin from the BSA this year, was a Scout from the age of 12, has served in almost every unit-level Scouting capacity including unit leader in three or four different places, and also on various district and council committees, and is my source of wisdom and strength on all things Scouting) quite possibly never would have become a Scout in the first place. I don't think there were too many little Jewish boys in Scout troops sponsored by Christian churches back then, as there are today.)

[acco40 95]

Wrt "Bob White" question. If littlebillie was really only interested in BW's opinion on the subject, she should have sent a personal message to him. When a poster posts a message in a forum, I fully expect that that poster is interested in a "community" response.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

I should clarify one thing that I said:

 

Interestingly, all of Judaism is representated to the BSA by a single Jewish Committee on Scouting, though the three main branches of Judaism have vastly different viewpoints on gay rabbis, gay "unions" and all other related subjects.

 

What I meant was that all of Judaism (in other words, all movements within Judaism that choose to be involved) are represented to the BSA (at the national level) by a single NATIONAL Jewish Committee on Scouting. The "National" is in the committee's name, I believe. There are "local" Jewish Committees on Scouting in some councils and perhaps at other levels as well. (For example, my guess would be that in New York City and its environs, there are JCOS's at both the council level and in some districts within those councils as well, and I assume that something similar is true for other religions depending their numbers within any given area.)

 

My point was that the different "movements" with Judaism (which are not considered separate religions or even separate denominations) do NOT have separate liaison groups to the BSA (to my knowledge), but they do have radically different viewpoints on at least one issue of concern to the BSA.

[dan 10]

I beleive that OGE's singing, is what made Bob leave.

 

Good to have you back NJCS, I appreciate your viewpoints and insights on these issues. Even when I do not agree with them.

[littlebillie 10]

please note that littlebillie earned HIS Eagle back in the 60's.

 

please also note that I invite all thoughts AND I'm really interested in what Bob's are.

 

 

[acco40 95]

Sorry, MR LB. Mea Culpa.

[dsteele 20]

 

NJCubscouter asked:

 

"Which leads to the question that I have asked a couple of times now and have not heard a definitive answer: What about the CO that is a place of worship that DOES have an openly gay minister, priest, rabbi or whatever? In other words, Whatevertown Episcopal Church or Congregation Beth Whatever is the CO for a Boy Scout troop, and the priest or rabbi is openly gay. (As I have said, this is probably not all that likely to happen, but I suspect there are a few places where it has.) The openly gay religious leader's name will be on the charter as IH. If the IH is willing to sign the charter agreement that says his/her place of worship will abide by all BSA policies, etc. (including the "policy" (really an interpretation of the Oath and Law) prohibiting openly gay leaders), will the BSA have a problem with this? Does the current "policy" prohibit it? Does anyone know of a situation where this has taken place? "

 

The answers to the last three questions are: 1) no 2) no and 3) no.

 

Now the expalantion --

 

The IH (Institutional Head) is not a registered position. As NJcubscouter points out, they sign off on the charter -- agreeing to follow the policies of the Boy Scouts of America. In fact, that's why they sign off on the charter and what renews the agreement.

 

The BSA has no control over who the head of a chartered partner is. That individual is signing because of his/her position in the organization. If the organization has a problem with BSA the individual will most probably not sign the charter and the unit will have to find another organization.

 

As to 3), no I don't personally know of any situation where there is/was an openly homosexual IH, but it could happen.

 

I did once have a Presbyterian Pastor tell me he was adamantly opposed to the BSA standards of membership, but he signed the charter because his church was adamantly for the BSA.

 

As to Bob White, I apologize for not mentioning it earlier. No, he hasn't left the forums, but he did let me know that he is unable to post for a while. You'll have to ask him when he reappears, but it may have had something to do with a bet with his wife

 

DS

 

 

[acco40 95]

I bet he lost.

[mk9750 11]

Oh man, that's gotta be killing him!

 

Dave,

 

I spoke with our Scout Executive (G.E.) last night at kickoff. He is doing well. Had a lot of very nice things to say about you. It seemed to me he felt priveledged to have worked with you.

 

Mark

[dsteele 20]

Thanks, Mark, for the kind words passed on by your Scout Executive.

 

If you want to have a little fun ask him -- since he holds me in such esteem -- Why did he hire Pete instead of me?

 

Actually, my friend Pete was more qualified. That's the honest-to-God answer. I would have come with a lower price tag, but Pete was definately the better deal.

 

But if you tell him (Pete) that I admitted it, a pox on you!

 

Thanks again.

 

Dave

[mk9750 11]

Dave

 

Poxes ain't my bag, baby!" Won't say a word.

 

Mark