Pregnant Leader

[Rooster7 11]

No man can testify as to what will become of any specific individuals soul. God is the only one who can truly answer your questions. Nevertheless, youve made some false premises that Id like to address.

 

What will happen to those who don't believe what we believe? (I am assuming we have the same belief). What becomes of Ghandi?

 

False Premise #1: God cannot judge Ghandi to be unfit for His kingdom. No man truly knows Ghandi. You just know of him the externals. God knows Ghandi He knows his heart, his motivations, and his sins. And, let us not forget, it IS Gods kingdom.

 

Or the souls who spent their entire lives never having gotten the chance to believe what we believe?

 

False Premise #2: If we havent witnessed it, then it hasnt happened. Just as you really dont know another mans heart, you dont know what God has revealed to those of whom you speak.

 

Or can being wrong still get one to heaven?

 

False Premise #3: "Being wrong will cause one to be rejected by God. Its rejecting God that will get you rejected by God.

 

Let's say Hinduism is the one true religion. Or that we idolize a false god by worshipping Jesus, when Judaism was the Way. Will you and I burn forever?

 

Since youre a self-professed Christian, Im not sure how to respond to that supposition. If you truly have these doubts, I would do some serious praying. Id want God to reveal himself to me. If you dont have doubts, then that question is moot.

 

I am certain that God is a loving God. However, He is a righteous God too. There are dozens of Bible verses that make it very clear that those who seek Him will know Him and can be assured of salvation.

 

Here are a couple of verses that I think you might want to read. If you study the Bible, you may discover that God is not the god who you have portrayed Him to be. Or maybe He is Regardless, everyone should challenge him/herself and ask, Do I truly know who God is, or I am worshiping an image that Ive created on my own?

 

Read Romans 9, Proverbs 1:7, John 6:60-71

 

If you truly want to be a Christian, then you have to accept some hard teachings.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[San DiegoSuzie 10]

matuawarrior,

I'm brand new to this site, I hope you don't mind me throwing my two cents in (seems like a lot of you folks have some interesting history here

I just wanted to commend you for your decision to keep this young person on in ANY capacity. I think it's important to recognize that as a very young (and obviously quite immature) woman, her continued association with the organization will provide positive role models for her as well, something she needs now more than ever. As to the concerns of some parents that she'll be a poor role model, I think they're 1) underestimating their kids and 2) missing the boat on a parenting opportunity. Based on my experience with my own two teens, I've found that situations like these have provided some of our best "teaching moments" and allowed an opportunity to discuss heavy topics like premarital sex, personal responsibility, etc. that my kids would ordinarily rather lose a thumb than talk to me about.

Suzie

[dsteele 20]

Suzie:

 

Welcome to the forums! I agree completely with your post. I think the young woman in question has a lot to learn from socuting and we, in turn, from her.

 

DS

[SM406 10]

dsteele,

 

Do you in your understanding of morally straight truly believe that this young lady is a good role model for 11 and 12 year old Boy Scouts? In her current state of pregency, it would be a constant visual reminder that sex outside of marriage is okay. Is that the message you as a professional want to send? Based on the previous post, she sounds like a truly great person, however currently she is not the proper role model.

 

SM406

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

sm406,

 

Role models come in all shapes and sizes. There are positive and negative role models. Last night there was one of the news magazines on TV. I think it was on ABC, but it may have been on NBC's Dateline. There was a story about a bodybuilder Dad who started taking GHB to enhance his workouts. He became addicted. His preteen son took the families camcorder to record his half comatose, twitching, convulsing Dad. He even had pictures of him passed out in the middle of the yard. GHB can be bought over the counter. The man is now in prison over his use. He has devestated his family. The son took the movies for several reasons. One was for his Dad to see what kind of an idiot he was when he was using and also for others to see what drug use can do to a person. We made our 10 year old Webelos son sit down and watch it with us. All of the positive talks we have with him and the example we set in our home about how bad drug use is will only go so far. We felt he needed to actually SEE what drug use does to a person and their loved ones. This guys misfortune and the bad example he is setting can have positive outcomes.

 

As a parent, I am very protective of my son....that's my job. But I do him a diservice to put blinders on him and never let him see the world in full color and what the consequences of actions are. We can be over protective and then our children are not fully prepared for life. It may be a good thing for the scouts to see the hardships this girl will face because of a lapse in judgement and self control. Nowhere have I seen where this troop was going to throw a parade for this girl or hold her in high esteem for being an unwed teenage mother. She is going to have a hard row to hoe. Someday, when these scouts are out on a date and things start heating up, they may think back to this pregnant girl and remember how her youth was cut short and decide to cool things off.

 

I know of what I am speaking of. I had some of the best parents in the world. No, make that THE best parents in the world. They were committed Christians. Honest, caring, giving, loving, morally straight, hard working, fun, etc. But I grew up assuming that everyone went to church everytime the doors were open, never drank, never cussed, never argued, cared what others thought of them, put other peoples needs before their own, etc. Boy was I unprepared for life and in for quite a surprise. When I encountered people who lived their life different than mine, I was self-righteous and looked down my nose at them. They were sinners. I'm older and wiser now and have been around the block a few times. I teach my son the same lessons my parents taught, but I try to let him see the negative side of life occasionally so he can see WHY we live like we do.

 

I think this girl needs to be back in an environment like scouting and her mistakes can become a positive thing for the kids.

[SR540Beaver 116]

oops, I hit send twice.....sorry(This message has been edited by kwc57)

[littlebillie 10]

'"avowed" adulteress...'? first, she's not married, right? and the father's not married? and they plan to marry? so she's not an adultress, is she? Technically? i imagine that she is, really, is a "self-evidenced fornicator". or something like that.

 

Anyway, just when DO they plan to get married? during this last month - and the first few months after that - she's not going to be doing too much work for the Scouts, I shouldn't think, so why not let her go on hiatus and re-up once they've wed?

 

just curious... unless they're planning to put it off TOO long?

 

as far as anyone "missing the boat on a parenting opportunity", I think everyone who's spoken out against this child-with-child-in-front-of-children has exercised parenting skills. while it may not be a discussion with their kids, it is a level of involvement that says "I do NOT believe my child is ready for all of this just yet, and I request that he not be exposed to it at this point in time." whether or not you agree with the position, that IS part of parenting.

 

Zero tolerance is zero tolerance, I'd think. hmmm - unless the old Scottish Common Law is mixed into all of this?

 

frankly, if Texas were to take a stand against this poor girl, it might show certain critics (who, me?) that they walk the walk. and if they don't, it may be because they're getting ready to alter the gay stance.

 

regardless - putting the stamp of leadership approval on this girl seems to send a passive message on a subject Scouting urges its leaders to actively avoid...

 

 

[San DiegoSuzie 10]

littlebillie

poor choice of words, sorry! rookie mistake...I didn't mean to imply that other parenting decisions in this situation are not possible or valid, of course they are. kwc57 provided a much more eloquent (and clear) post in line with what I was trying to convey.

I doubt seriously that anyone who has posted in support of keeping this young woman on in the troop/crew thinks that her pregnancy is something the kids would (or should!) look upon positively, and if she were trying to portray it as such then my opinion would certainly change. What they CAN look on positively is their troop leaders' compassion and support for a young person who made a very serious mistake and now is trying (I can only assume) to "straighten up and fly right". Our troop had a young man drop out last year, we've heard from older scouts who attend the same school that he's fallen in with a pretty rough crowd, is probably using drugs, etc. etc. The SM has communicated with him and expressed his concern, and has also let him know that when he's ready to get back on track we'll be there for him. Seems like a very similar situation...would any of you disagree with our willingness to accept and support him if and when he decides to turn his life around?

Suzie

[Eamonn 61]

Am I missing something ?

Were this young Lady wanting to return to the crew. That would be fine with me.

Just like the young Lad who has gone and found the wrong crowd, I would have all the compassion in the world for him.

But this Lady wants to come back as the ASM.

Sorry, I just don't think this is the right time for her to come on board.

Just as I would not allow the young Lad to turn up at a meeting high on whatever it was he was taking.

[Rooster7 11]

COULD - MIGHT - CAN BECOME...etc, these qualifiers are very important. Just because a bad situation has the potential to become a positive learning experience, doesnt mean it will become one. Furthermore, even if the said individual is repentant and a stellar example in many other ways, one has to think about the unsaid, unintentional messages that are being conveyed. Say for example, by all appearances, the pregnant and unmarried girl is extremely happy. She presents a public image of someone who is successful, trouble-free, and unencumbered. Now, as adults, many of us might think - Good for her! Shes making the best of a bad situation. However, a 12-year-old, especially if the situation is never addressed publicly, he may be thinking - Hey, getting pregnant straight out of high school is no big deal. Look at how well Jane Doe is doing. If the situation is glossed over and no one talks to the Scouts, then the potential for sending a message can go either way - positive or negative. So, if I were going to allow Jane Doe to become a leader in my troop, then I would strongly advise the parents to have a talk with their child. I would even consider asking the young lady to talk to the Scouts (with advance parental notice) about her unfortunate circumstance. If the purpose of allowing the girl to become a leader is to provide a positive learning experience, then the leadership needs to make sure that the right message is sent. If they simply allow her to become a leader, and never address her pregnancy in any fashion, then they are rolling the dice and hoping for the best. This is not a smart plan. If the troop (committee/charter organization) is afraid of addressing the pregnancy (because of the feared reaction of the Scouts and/or their parents, or the girl is not willing to have it addressed, or the leadership is not sure how to address it, etc.), then I say the wiser course of action is to ask the young lady to reapply after some time has passed, and definitely not while she is pregnant and unmarried.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[littlebillie 10]

Hey, huge question - what kind of insurance liability might this represent, and is it covered in the BSA's policies?

[scoutldr 732]

I guess the biggest thing I have a problem with is the cavalier, "in your face" attitude, which I hope is not the intended perception. The original post stated, "She is over 18 years old and has decided to start her family." Morality issues aside, if this is the case, the young lady is incredibly stupid. Another reason not to be viewed as a role model.

 

Taken at face value, my perception is that this is not viewed as an "unfortunate circumstance". It sounds like it was a conscious decision to become pregnant out of wedlock. I had a similar thing happen in my troop, only it was one of my scout's older (but not much older) sister. Pregnant sister came regularly to pick up her brother. Then baby and grandmother came to the meetings where all the other moms oohed and ahhed and this child of a child was passed around for all to admire, while the 17 year old unwed mom basked in the limelight. I noticed all of the scouts taking it all in. Who knows what value systems got altered in the experience. All they saw was "look at my wonderful cute baby and now I'm really important and admired." They don't get to see the down side, like standing in line at the welfare office for ADC and food stamps.

 

My final vote is yes, if she wants to work behind the scenes as a committee member. No, for a "direct contact" position.

 

PS: Thanks, littlebillie for sending me scrambling for my Websters'!!! You are 100% correct and I learned something new. It's been a good day!

[matuawarrior 10]

Hunt and San Diego Suzie -- Welcome to the virtual Campfire.

 

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the thread. I've been really busy with the opening of my second store at the nearby airbase. It's really exciting to start something new in a different environment, But the economy on base is alot better than what is going on locally. I also placed an update on the "What do you do for a living" thread.

 

Again, I thank everyone who has posted here. I've read most if not all the posts today since I last posted. I may have to go back and reread them again. Most of the posts will be discussed at my foundations next board of directors meeting to make some changes to the registered volunteer criteria in the by-laws.

 

Anyhow, We are looking to conducting teen pregnancy classes in August when majority of the youth membership returns from their vacation break. We are not taking this lightly. Our Youth Pastor from the Church we attend will be talking with the Scouts and Venturers regarding the Church views on teen pregnancy. I don't think he knows yet because I've just talked to my Pastor about the situation the other day.

 

Although unpopular, I've made a decision to make this young lady a leader with advice from the committee, and the Church, with direction from the Charter's by-laws. She has no direct contact with the youth members unless they are updating the scout or venturer's record.

 

This will be a learning experience for all involved especially myself. How this turns out? Only time will tell.

 

- - - - - - - - -

 

Eamonn,

 

As for allowing her to register as a venturer in the crew, that was dismissed by the CC, even though as the Crew Advisor I was the approving authority. The young lady would have too much influence with the Venturer's Leadership Council. She is only two requirements away from earning her Silver Award. My CC had the foresight to say " No,not at this time". The last thing National BSA needs is a 8-month pregnant venturer receiving her Silver Award.

 

Maybe I'm wrong but what would the forum members say about registering her as a venturer instead of as a leader. I am open to any suggestions.

 

 

- - - - -

 

Matua

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

What are the BSA membership requirements for Venturers? Can the CO add to those requirements? If a female (or male) Venturer became a parent while registered, would they be kicked out?

 

Tough questions.

[NWScouter 9]

I have read this thread for a few weeks now and I'm just wondering where is the father to be?

Is in or was in the Venturing crew? What should we do with a young man in this situation? Is it differant because it doesn't "show"?