What causes racial hatred: racists or racial friction?

[packsaddle 753]

The Arab/Israeli conflict is more complicated than racism and it involves a huge component of religion as well as politics and economics.

Racism is learned (or taught) (thanks Eisely, you too, Ed) but I believe that it isn't quite that simple. I admit that I have never fully understood racism even though I was raised in its midst and have seen and felt it first-hand (we're close to being neighbors, mama_bear). Nearly all of my childhood acquaintances were racists by their teens, mostly the result of peer interactions and adult pressures, I think. But a few took it to extremes of hatred that I cannot explain on the basis of their personal experiences. I am willing to entertain the idea that another characteristic (evidently unknown to me) was present in combination with their racist views that caused such extreme, violent hatred. I am not comfortable with the concept of evil, but perhaps Rooster has a point, for want of a better explanation.

 

In the original post was a statement, "The greater the racial diversity, the greater the racial hatred in a community." I strongly disagree. I agree with mama_bear's response to that statement. But I also agree with Rooster that ignorance is not a prerequisite for racism. I suppose that ignorance makes a person susceptible to many suggestions, racism among them, but there are many persons who choose a racist view in a conscious, considered manner. I obviously don't know why.

 

Racism certainly continues but in my region, but I sense that it has greatly diminished. I don't agree that we are 'Balkanizing', at least I don't see it in the South. In one generation (mine) racism was a pervasive norm, in the next (my children) it is uncommon and viewed as something to reject. In my troop, I see its vestiges in parents (they keep their yaps shut); but in the boys [and we have a multicultural troop] it is completely absent. I see progress and hope.

[SagerScout 10]

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No, but over 700 perfectly legal immigrants from potentially "problematic" countries were detained - without charges, and without counsel - for periods of up to 9 months, including a well-respected local physician. All were released, because hey! they didn't do anything wrong and we figured that out. An additional number - I don't know how many - were deported because they had been found to have overstayed their visas. (This, I have no problem with - rules are rules...)

 

In Tulia, Tx, a large number of black citizens were imprisoned on drug charges due to the testimony of one drug enforcement officer - good work, you say? Oops, my bad, he's an admitted perjurer that just doesn't like black men. He fabricated evidence and lied under oath in order to lock 'em up.

 

Freedom is not free. Part of the price is that sometimes we have to take a risk of leaving a guilty person on the street, in order to ensure that we do not lock up an innocent one. This 4th grade civics lesson was apparently missed by a significant number of members of the current administration.

 

Now, can different races live in harmony? Absolutely. I give you the celebration of the NBA CHAMPION SPURS - where 300,000 people of all races came together on the Riverwalk in San Antonio to clap for one of the the classiest bunch of athletes that any city could claim. 70,000 met in the Alamodome to sniffle at the thought that our beloved Admiral is retiring - and laugh at Steve Kerr's wisecracks, and be proud of Tony Parker for being a man and being happy that Speedy had his back on a bad day - and ask via sign for Manu Ginobili to marry us... Oh, what? Those guys are black, white, FRENCH, Chinese, Argentinian you say? Who cares? Half the Spurs fans are Mexican-American.

 

No riots, no cars turned over, no fights - just a huge party. One tragic death in a traffic accident just after the game, to mar one family's glee forever - but it really was just an accident, not even a drunk driver involved.

 

If it can happen for one night, one day, one week, maybe soon it will happen all nights, all days, all weeks. Pray for it!

[packsaddle 753]

300,000 people on the riverwalk? They must have been packed like sardines. Uhhh, am I being a speciesist?

[Rooster7 11]

Freedom is not free. Part of the price is that sometimes we have to take a risk of leaving a guilty person on the street, in order to ensure that we do not lock up an innocent one. This 4th grade civics lesson was apparently missed by a significant number of members of the current administration.

 

There is a balance here that needs to be struck. I suppose this is one of those issues that can divide many of us along ideological lines. No one, not even President Bush wants to see innocent people in jail (Thats not a slamI like the manIm just stating what should be obvious, even to liberals). However, one has to ask, At what price do we protect our freedoms? While I agree we should be very cautious, I dont necessarily agree with the price that some feel we have to pay. As long as human beings are witnesses, policemen, lawyers, and judges, there will be abuses, intentional or not. Im a realist. Try as we may, its not a perfect justice systemthere never will be a perfect justice system, not on this earth. So, if one innocent man goes to jail inadvertently, I am as upset as the next person to hear about it. And, I certainly want an explanation. But if there is no malice and thousands of guilty individuals are incarcerated or otherwise prevented from practicing evil deeds in this country, then I have to say while its a horrible price to pay, it too is the cost of freedom. Because if I cant let my son walk to the store, or if I have anxiety attacks when I fly, or if my daughter cant sleep because she has nightmares about terrorists, etc., then we have lost our freedoms! Yes, protect the innocent. But lets be practical and realistic too. If you truly want to ensure no innocent person ever goes to jail, then do away with the justice system. Then, you will have an absolute guarantee that no innocent man will ever be persecuted by the government. However, you wont ever find a spot in this country where you or children can feel safe. Whats more horrible? Some innocent people inadvertently are jailed? Or You, your children, and ever other innocent person you know cannot feel safe in their own home. Of course, we have not reached a point in our society, where this is an either or proposition. Yet, before folks cast stones at President Bush or his administration, step back and look at the job that they have to do. Theyre trying to stop terrorists who think we are worthy of death, even torture, because we do not embrace their God and their religious teachings. They celebrate the death of innocent bystanders not soldiers, simply because these folks live in a country that does not agree with their religious teachings. You want your freedoms? Fine, everybody does. Just think about what kind of freedoms you would have if our President and his administration failed to protect you against these terrorists.

[packsaddle 753]

Question, "Whats more horrible? Some innocent people inadvertently are jailed? Or You, your children, and ever other innocent person you know cannot feel safe in their own home."

Answer: I choose feeling insecure over injustice.

 

"Theyre (the administration) trying to stop terrorists who think we are worthy of death, even torture, because we do not embrace their God and their religious teachings."

There's only one God, isn't there Rooster, or am I wrong? At any rate it would be the same one for us and the Moslems. Are you really so certain that terrorism is all about religious differences?

[Rooster7 11]

Mostly - I am.

 

If I was alive during the height of WWII, and thousands of Germans or Japanese were targeted and killed, while I might appreciate the fact that the war could be moving closer to an end, I would not be celebrating their deaths. Likewise, during the bombing of Iraq, while I believed and hoped that it would help bring about a quick resolution to the conflict, I was not hoping that thousands of innocent Iraqi's would die in the process. In contrast, Muslims in the Middle East countries took to the streets after 9-11, and celebrated with glee. It was a sicken display. Why? Why do you think these people celebrate the deaths of innocent Americans? Even if they appreciated the fact that "their voices were finally be heard" (which I think is a crock), why would one joyfully, jubilantly, celebrate the deaths of thousands of people? I think the answer is obvious. They are convinced that they are God's chosen people and all infidels should not be breathing the same air. This is not bigotry on my part, but fact. Their major religious teachers preach this message on a regular basis. Do all Muslims believe this? I would venture to say - no. Still, you've asked me if I thought this (terrorism from the Middle East) was about religion. The answer, I think, has to be - yes. Few men seek to die for political leaders, especially when those same leaders are sitting in palaces while their citizens are fighting for food. These fools are killing themselves because they want to kill infidels for Allah, who will reward them in heaven with seven virgins. How much more plain can it be?

 

 

"O ye who believe! Murder those of the unbelievers. . . and let them find harshness in you." [Koran, Repentance:123](This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Rooster7 11]

Answer: I choose feeling insecure over injustice.

 

Thats a glib answer when you consider feeling insecure would mean the deaths of many Americans, and the very real possibility of attacks against your neighbors and friends, if not your own family. The President and his administration are not protecting us against hypothetical terrorists. Its not your feelings that are being protected. Its your lives and your way of life.

 

[packsaddle 753]

Rooster,

The "feeling insecure" part was the only way I could interpret what you wrote: "and ever other innocent person you know cannot feel safe in their own home." No matter how you want to say it now, it was a feeling when you said it then. Fear, to me, is less bad (and less real) than being unjustly slammed into prison.

 

I am reluctant to view terrorists as more than thugs without honor. I am open to objective evidence, however, to alternative associations. What IS glib is to simply paint a religion (not our own) as the source of terrorism. As a non-Islamic person, I suppose I should read your words and be afraid. On the contrary, I walk with my Islamic friends with no fear whatsoever. What devoutly religious person does not consider their belief to be the correct one? Or are you ready to admit your personal doubts? Which religion is it that does not cultivate devout belief?

 

The television images you cite are undeniable. However, I believe that the television images you saw after 9/11 did not fairly represent the vast majority of Islamic persons. Likewise, I don't jump to the conclusion that the images of riots after Rodney King depict the common response of black persons throughout our country. How many times have you and others condemned the media for slanting their reporting in order to sensationalize? Yet here you employ those most sensational images to support your idea.

 

Furthermore, I am no scholar of the Quran and I am unable to read the original scripts (do you?). However, I do know the quote you mention because I have seen it in numerous sites devoted to condemning Islam. The '...' part of the quote should trouble you. Here is an equally valid alternative translation (with the missing words): "9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." Let's see, what was that again?

"...WHO GIRD YOU ABOUT..."

Do you notice a difference? Can you conceive the possibility that persons wishing to promote a certain view chose a version that best supports them? Or that they left out some words to slant YOUR view? Is this the approach that you embrace?

 

I am not providing a criticism of any particular view. I am merely trying to promote some objectivity. If you are prejudiced against Moslems, be honest enough to say it directly. State your reasons. Be objective. Maybe you'll gain some converts.

[Rooster7 11]

I'm convinced that our government is taking prudent measures to protect us against those who wish us harm. I don't want to see Muslims persecuted. Nor do I believe those in power want to see Muslims abused. My point is, we shouldn't cover our eyes and pretend that their faith has nothing to do the attacks.