What is Morally Straight?

[Dedicated Dad]

P Swigs

Either add something useful to the thread or kindly refrain from typing anything.

Kindly be specific of what constitutes anything. I believe this thread was/is based on a comment I made to OGE on another thread. So far you have reprimanded both OGE and me without offering insight to the matter at hand.

What you're asking is about as stupid a comment as anything I've seen in this forum.

Thank you for your insightful and pithy argument, I hope others comments can withstand your test of appropriateness.

Because of commentary from you and other people like you, I believe this entire forum is on the verge of being cast aside and forgotten by the majority of Scouters who come here for it's original intent - to exchange creative ideas for our Boy Scout Troops and Cub Scout Packs and to have constructive conversation, not to put up with ludicrous statements like yours.

WOW, I thought this was the Politics and Issues forum. Thank you for your acknowledgement that there are other people like me because we are all in the same organization you are. If you would kindly point out my ludicrous statement, maybe we could have a beneficial dialog to others, but without that specificity your comments are only illegitimate and inflammatory. Either grow up and become a responsible Scouter or get out! I am an adult leader in this great institution and I have every right to be here as much as you do. Your thoughts, however, are noted. Perhaps your aversion to the camo thread and this one are your way of saying only your opinion is relevant.

 

 

 

[vizoere]

P_Swigs, I was slightly offended at your second post on this thread, "Come on, people - lets not...". I chose not to reply because I respect the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine.

I must object though to your latest post in response to Dedicated Dad. I may or may not agree with him, but there is no reason to demean him with that rant.

Contrary to your post, this is precicely the place to have this discussion.

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Issues & Politics

In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content.

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Please note the phrase, "Those not interested can skip this forum"

 

Thanks for your understanding.

[Chief Decorah]

I happen to think P_Swigs is on the right track with his statements about comments in this thread, although he worded his commentary a bit strongly.

 

While this IS the Issues and Politics forum, I have found some of the posts by Scouters to be a bit puzzling. It starts with the questions posted by OGE. Seems kind of strange that a veteran Scouter would post questions like that, even if could be an effort to "stir the pot" and encourage conversation, as P_Swigs suggests.

 

Then to have Dedicated Dad come in referring to Experienced Hoary Raptors and asking questions like "Is the unrepentant practice of perversion good, right and true?" and his later dandy about asking the author of the Scout Oath if homosexuality is morally straight, and then offering one word posts that link up with the definition of the word perversion? Seems to me like Dedicated Dad, if he's as responsible of a Scouter as he says, could be more responsible in his posts. (Do you really think that the author of the Scout Oath had homosexuality in mind when he wrote it?)

 

I happen to think P_Swigs' first post on the meaning of the Scout Oath is pretty much right on the money. The Scout Law and living a decent life and caring for, and about, others is what being morally straight is to me.

[Dedicated Dad]

vizoere

True, anyone can create a "religion" with whatever beliefs they like. Umm, I never mentioned religion."What gives any one of us the right to judge that what someone does is morally straight or not?" That would be the BSA.The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization.I think, but Im not sure, that would be the God of Abraham.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

While the Scout Law is definitive, I find the term "morally straight" to not be so. I can describe examples of what trustworthy is, and is not, of what loyalty is and is not. What I dont understand is the use of the word "perversion".

[Dedicated Dad]

Chief Decorah

Then to have Dedicated Dad come in referring to Experienced Hoary Raptors and asking questions likeFirst of all, ExperiencedHoaryRaptor is and was a benevolent way of saying OldGreyEagle and was meant in good spirit as a nick name, much the same way GWB nicknames all of his friends.

Experienced = a kind way of saying old.

Hoary = a kind way of saying grey. Though I suspect you may have accidentally inserted a W in front of it.

Raptor = a respectful analogy of the greatest bird of prey.

offering one word posts that link up with the definition of the word perversion? That would be to substantiate/verify my definition as that may have been challenged previously.

(Do you really think that the author of the Scout Oath had homosexuality in mind when he wrote it?) That was a question at the heart of the Supreme Court trial, I think it has merit to the TOPIC of the thread. The Scout Law and living a decent life and caring for, and about, others is what being morally straight is to me. Though you may not accept my point of view, I do care for all individuals, regardless of their iniquities. It seems that youre watching the parade a couple blocks behind.

 

 

[Chief Decorah]

DD,

Do you mean to say that since I think "Morally Straight" means "following the Scout Law and caring for and about others" is outdated? I'm not sure what you meant by your statement of me watching the parade a few blocks behind. It seems to me that a person of good morals has those attributes.

 

As for the Hoary Raptor comments, they seemed to come out of nowhere and my first thought was perhaps they were of a negative nature. I stand corrected.

[Dedicated Dad]

What I dont understand is the use of the word "perversion". Its a fair and reasonable description of the psychosocial and learned behavior of homosexuality. To your other points, I believe that certain actions are intrinsically right or wrong and need not be scheduled on a list of what is or isnt morally straight. Less most felony convictions, I believe that what is in ones past is not of consequence as long as he/she is no longer an advocate of and is repentant to that wrong behavior in the present. If someone was a homosexual, adulterer, alcoholic, drug user, compulsive gambler, etc. but no longer practices or supports such behavior Id have no problem with their participation.

[scoutmom]

I think OGE posed a very good question and some of the responses went a little overboard. "Morally Straight" is going to have a different definition to every individual based on how they were raised. "Morally straight" is NOT one definite thing. It will vary depending upon your religion, your ethnic background, your nationality. Cathloics accept some practices while rejecting others, just as Baptists, Methodists and Jews accept some things and reject others. Sometimes it is the same thing, sometimes not. Sometimes it's a big thing like abortion or the acceptance of Jesus as your Savior (sp?) and sometimes is't a smaller issue like eating meat on Friday or not eating Pork or shellfish (I know, those are't trivial to the religions that subscribe to those rules, not trying to belittle them, just trying to make a point).

 

I can't define morally straight for YOU any more than you can define it for ME.

 

Just my $0.02 worth.

[Stan Riddle]

As long as we continue to quarrel among ourselves, and create animosity about personal beliefs, we succeed in being our own foes, and willing assistants to those who would love to see Scouting collapse.

 

Morally straight for me will continue to mean heterosexual, pro-family, patriotic, pro-children, and a host of other things. I can only influence youth in the way I beleive their parents would want me to. My personal beliefs on such persnoal matters as sexual orientation have no place in Scouts, unless I am asked specifically by the boys. Even then, it is a topic that I will always tell them is a matter best dealt with at home.

 

I continue to believe that the topic of homosexuality is best left to Scout's families and religous organizations - not to Boy Scout troops.

 

Please use your energies ( and key strokes ) for the betterment of Scouting. I have learned much from many of you, and I appreciate it.

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

Let me say, you've have stirred the potBut this is not a bad thing. If these issues are not brought forward and discussed, how can we learn and grow? I believe it is a great topic for discussionPerhaps the best one brought forward on the entire site.

 

As to your original set of questions, I'd like to address them:

 

"Does it mean you cannot be a scout leader if you were ever divorced?

 

Does morally straight mean you have to be a virgin until your wedding night and can never contemplate being a scout leader if you weren't?

 

Could you ever have used illegal drugs, snuck a beer while underage, disobeyed your parents?"

 

I believe one can be guilty of all of the above, and be "morally straight". I do not think one can endorse the above set of transgressions and claim to be morally straight. This is not a contradiction. I fail to keep my temper more often that I care to admit. This does not mean having a bad temper is morally acceptable. But it doesn't mean I should try to justify it eitherthe behavior is still wrong. Being morally straight does not mean one must be morally perfect. This misconception is often applied to Christianity as well. We strive to do the right things, but this does not mean we never fail. However, when we do fail, we should not claim our failures to be something other than what they really are - mistakes or transgressions.

 

"What act in the past, not including child endangerment or molestation, would preclude a person from being a scout leader?"

 

I'd probably add murder and rape to that list, but I'm not sure I can answer that specific question. I think each Troop committee should examine candidates on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps, at some point in time, a mistake in judgment will be made. Nevertheless, the committee SHOULD use their judgment hereIn fact; it would be irresponsible if they did not examine each candidate and "pass judgment" on them as to their fitness to be a Boy Scout leader. We may not be perfect ourselves, but we owe it to our children to seek out and find the most competent and "morally straight" leaders we can find.

 

OGE, you said - "I think the term perversion is a judgment applied by an Observer about a situation/action that Observer can't personally comprehend."

 

Sctmom, you said - "I can't define morally straight for YOU any more than you can define it for ME."

 

I know what I'm about to state is not what you meantStill, I need to say it to illustrate a point. These two statements are very weak in logic if applied to common sense. For example, if we use either OGE or Sctmom's standard to judge "morally straight", then one would have to accept murderers and rapists.

 

Using OGE's standard - Since I never committed rape, I am just an "observer" and therefore, can't comprehend the situation/action. That being the case, who am I to judge?

 

Using Sctmom's standard - Since I am not YOU, my standards of being "morally straight" should not be applied to you. You're entitled to have your own standards.

 

Of course, I'm OGE and Sctmom are not endorsing a system that would allow murderers and rapists into BSA leadership. Without any doubt in my mind, I'm sure this is true. Nevertheless, their definitions do not stand up under scrutiny and logic.

 

So, what is morally straight? My reply will probably not satisfy everyone or most, but here's my shot at this:

 

Moral (according to Websters) - of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

 

I believe God (regardless of faith), has given each of us "moral common sense". Now, I realize that opens the door to more debate, but stillI believe it to be true. That being said, I'm confident that OGE, Sctmom, and every practicing homosexual knows in their heart of hearts, that the behavior is wrong. It is an obvious perversion of naturepurely from a biological standpoint this is plain to see. Even more blatant is its offensiveness to God. I have no problem stating this because I'm convinced in it is true. I'm also convinced that the founders of BSA would have stated it just as clearly if not more so.

 

Finally, I believe Dedicated Dad's question is right on the mark -

 

"From what I know about BSA v. Dale is that it was argued that the author of the Oath didn't have 'Homosexuality' in mind as NOT being Morally Straight, and perhaps the thought never crossed his mind. I would ask anyone here if they would think the author, if asked specifically is "Homosexuality" Morally Straight, would he answer yes or no?

 

Without question, I believe the answer would be NO.

 

[sctmom]

First, I am SCTMOM and there is also a SCOUTMOM on here. Even though we seem to agree, we are not one person.

 

One comment was made:

"The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization.

 

I think, but Im not sure, that would be the God of Abraham"

 

Uh, there are other religions than Christianity, Judiasm and Muslim. There are religions that do not worship the same god as Abraham did.

And to be completely off subject, there is an excellent article in the current National Geographic about Abraham and the religions that believe in him.

 

 

Rooster writes:

"I believe God (regardless of faith), has given each of us "moral common sense". Now, I realize that opens the door to more debate, but stillI believe it to be true. That being said, I'm confident that OGE, Sctmom, and every practicing homosexual knows in their heart of hearts, that the behavior is wrong. It is an obvious perversion of naturepurely from a biological standpoint this is plain to see. Even more blatant is its offensiveness to God. "

Again, not all religions are included in Christianity, Judiasm and Muslim. Not all religions believe it is wrong or offensive to God.

 

There are religions being practiced today in the United States of America that worship goddesses and other gods. These people have very high moral values and live among you as upstanding citizens. I have searched my heart and I don't feel it is wrong. (even though you were referring to Scoutmom, not me when you wrote this). True there is no biological reason for it. But I still don't feel it is wrong.

 

 

[Rooster7]

sctmom and scoutmom,

 

First, sorry about the mix up.

 

In regard to - "Again, not all religions are included in Christianity, Judaism and Muslim. Not all religions believe it is wrong or offensive to God." I believe God (the one and only true God) has made himself known to all. This does not mean that I believe BSA is a Christian organization and/or that no other faiths are welcomed.

 

As to - "There are religions being practiced today in the United States of America that worship goddesses and other gods. These people have very high moral values and live among you as upstanding citizens."

 

There are all sorts of religions being practiced today. Funny, you can create a "faith" from any set of beliefs and worship any god you so chose. Are all of these so-called faiths ligament? Before you answer that, look at the full spectrum of choices and tell me where you draw the line? If you say you don't draw a line, then you've open the door to many strange things indeed. We might as well have no standards at all. Being reverent doesn't mean, find a God that fits your style...It means worshiping God as He is. I'm open minded to other faiths, but not to religions that are created for convince and acceptability.

 

"I have searched my heart and I don't feel it is wrong. (even though you were referring to scoutmom, not me when you wrote this)."

 

I can't comment on what's in your heart...only God can, but I find this statement difficult to believe. I'm disgusted by the thought of two men being sexual active with one another. I can't imagine how anyone can accept this behavior as normal and acceptable.

 

[ScouterPaul]

Wow! Seems as if Scouting has it's fair share of people unwilling to accept people who are different then themselves. Different in thought, looks, beliefs ect. How narrow of an organization have we become.

 

My interpretation of the word straight is more literal. It is up to each individual to determine what their code of morality is and then to stay true to their beliefs.

[sctmom]

There are many non-Christian religions that are not "just created for convience" but have been around as long if not longer than Christianity. Native Amercian religions, Druids, Wicca, Pagans (which covers Wicca and Druids as well as many others), to name a few. Yes, these are legitimate religions. It doesn't mean I believe everything they believe in, but these are not cults or fly-by-night (excuse the pun) religions. With the internet at our fingertips we can find out a lot about what they really believe in and practice. Also, you might be surprised (as I have been) to learn of what high moral standards most of these people adhere to and how similar their beliefs are to Christianity. Many Christian rituals were borrowed from the pagans or created as competition to the pagan rituals.