Mandatory Training

[John-in-KC 311]

Anarchist wrote in part:

 

Get a life, your "job" is to learn the material no matter how poor the "teacher" is. Are you an intelligent adult or do you want to be thought of as a bottle-fed infant with a soiled diaper? Sure its more work and effort to dig out the info when you think the teacher is a twit, but Life is not always what we would like it to be...if you have been given broken eggs - make an omelet!

 

HORSEHOCKEY!

 

We''re VOLUNTEERS, not someone with a job. We choose to serve Scouting out of hopefully passion, possibly necessity (we really need you to lead...) and occasionally out of duress (we will not charter Den 6 without a DL...who''s going to step up?).

 

VOLUNTEERS need to be treated with care and respect for their time, and new unit-serving volunteers more so than us old farts who have WB, who go to supplemental training, who have to choose between backing up a single Campmaster and going to skills/safety training at the Scout Reservation.

 

If we don''t treat the new arrival parents well, we won''t have their KIDS and them around for the journey.

 

So NO... THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BAD VOLUNTEER TRAINING IN SCOUTING!! IT''S A DIS-SERVICE TO THE MOVEMENT!!

 

[BrentAllen 10]

So, John - who is conducting the training in your district? Paid staff or volunteers? Is it their job, or voluntary service? Are new leaders expecting professional training sessions?

 

To quote you, nearly all trainers are "VOLUNTEERS, not someone with a job."

[John-in-KC 311]

Well, Brent,

 

In the case of the supplemental training I''m not going to (there''s a need for campmasters, and Ranger told me he could certify me 1/1),...

 

- An insurance professional who does safe driving for truck driving schools is doing the safe driving theory class.

- Licensed heavy equipment operator-trainers are doing training on the Bobcat, the road grader, the backhoe, and our dozer.

- CDL trainers are doing the heavy truck and bus driving training.

- Two master mechanics are doing the shop tools classes.

 

Yes, they''re volunteers, but they''re specialists.

 

In my own District, we''ve got a great crew teaching most of our courses. The YP lady is with CPS. Our Merit Badge Counselor trainer... he retired from teaching education. Our IOLS guy who teaches/demonstrates camp cooking? Award winning barbecue!

 

As for me, I got my Instructor Skill Identifier from the Army in 1987, and have since learned Instructional Systems Development. I teach adults in my day job both in large group and 1/1 formats. I teach specific classes in program being a RT staffer. I teach PRAY''s "God and Church" in our District God and Country program from an area church.

 

I admit, we''re blessed, but when others say suck it up, I say baloney. We who are the long-standing Scouters need to learn how to present training to standard.

 

If you can be pedantic about uniforming, please allow me to be pedantic about ensuring we have quality training for new volunteers. If not, we can then cut straight to the ad hominem attacks.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

If I may...

 

The background on the COuncil I serves foray into manditory training is interesting. The decision came from the executive board and the first charge to the Pros was to have competent training committees in each disttrict before this was breathed to the general populace Each Disitrct (we have 6) hold training coordinated with the other distrcts so that most training is available in council every 2 months. If you make it Manditory, they will come, but you better know what you are doing as well And that was handled up front

[Aquila 10]

I agree with Lisa. YPT is do-able for all. The quality of the other training varies widely with the trainer. I''d love to see a lot more done over the Net rather than wasting time and money sitting in a room with someone droning on in monotone about things so basic that no one with any Scouting experience could have missed (not that I have a definite opinion or anything ;-)).

 

For troops that have a difficult time getting enough involvement as it is, this could be a death knell.

[John-in-KC 311]

OGE,

 

I really, really appreciate that your Executive Board went to that level of effort to make the training experience worthwhile to volunteers! It shows me that the community cares about Scouting. Further, there''s something RIGHT about the Professional Staff caring enough not just to have program materials for sale, but that those materials need quality delivery.

 

Aquila,

 

To your last sentence I say: YEA, VERILY!!! Considering the Professional Service seems to be evaluated in major part on their sales of unit charters and youth memberships, I have to hope they''ll have the kind of vision OGE''s community leaders and Pros did!

[Lisabob 13]

Anarchist, I understand your point and as a professional teacher of people roughly ages 18-80, I have to say there is a point where the "customer is always right" mentality that so many American students have these days is just downright depressing. Lots of people want to be educated but do not want to educate themselves. Huge difference there. Education isn''t supposed to be something that just happens to you - students have their own, active, role to play in the process.

 

But, because I know a thing or two about the scholarship of teaching and learning, I also know that a terrible teacher is likely to completely alienate his or her students, and that, while those students may struggle through the material on their own (at least, the most dedicated among them will), they will not generally develop that spark that leads to a passion to learn/do/be more.

 

And it takes very little in the way of word of mouth to discourage others from giving up their free time (and often money) to attend a horrible session.

 

Really, there is no excuse for horrible training to occur. It isn''t rocket science. Most of the material comes from national. All it takes is a little time and advance preparation. I''m very tolerant of people who are trying their best to share their knowledge with the rest of us, even if they aren''t natural or professional educators. What I''m intolerant of is people who are just plumb lazy and don''t put any effort into doing a good job, or into welcoming the assistance of others who could help them with improving the quality of training being offered. We as adults have a responsibility to strive to do better too - all of us. For me personally, that means improving my outdoor skills. For others, that might mean learning to be a better trainer, if one wants to be on the training staff.

 

So when I go to an alleged "training" session and discover that the person presenting was given literally 10 minutes notice, that they don''t have the syllabus or any of the other national materials for the training, or where they read the slides word for word because it is the first time they''ve ever seen them, and that they''ve never held anything like the position for which they are now attempting to train me...all I can conclude is that genuine training is not a true priority for the people running the show. And if that''s the case, why in the world are they asking me to waste my time and money on this bogus exercise?

 

You can probably tell, this is an issue I care deeply about.

 

Good students can tell when an instructor is fudging it. Once in a great while is ok I guess. But when it is an everyday occurrence, something should be done about it.

 

[anarchist 10]

First to John-in-KC

 

Horse feathers to your horse hockey...;>)

 

You are playing at semantics ...(and loosing I might add) "To Volunteer" only means you have taken a JOB without pay, perhaps for some private motive (you get to choose here) but you have still taken a job...yes a J O B. By volunteerism one does not become a minor saint nor does one have claim to any golden throne but as a volunteer you do make a committment to do the necessary work...and you also get the worms with the apple...and since this is not a perfect world you should expect lots of worms...

 

And of course, I could play the "Volunteers - you get what you pay for" card but that would be just for grins, now wouldn''t it.

 

Sure Volunteers are wonderful folks (we truely are) but taking the position of "someone refusing to take training because the district or council can''t afford simply wonderful Dale Carnagie (sp its late) type instructors" and so district or council doesn''t treat volunteers well is pure bunk...;>)(and if they are gonna take their kids and go home- please do?)

 

Most scout training, nationwide, unfortunately is done by volunteers...and gosh, "stuff happens", don''t you know. For instance, I took a bunch of folks to scoutmaster fundamentals a few months ago to get some new troop adults "trained", (sat through the course again so they would have a friendly (ha!) face in the room)...heck I even paid the course fee again cause I am such a wonderful guy...Unfortunately, the scheduled trainer had an emergency and at the last minute (literally the night before) a new instructor was roped into doing the training...He was unfamiliar with the class set up the video equipment didn''t work right (there was a special way the gear had to be coaxed into action). Was it that volunteers fault that he was pushed into the fray at the last minute because another man had his back broken in an accident? Hardly.

 

Should everyone have thrown up their hands and left due to a poor trainer...should they decline to take further training...please, give me a break!

Face it, as you already know, most of us volunteers start this journey at least somewhat selfishly (in my case because I wanted a great program for my two sons...and I knew I could help deliver it) rather than from purely altruistic motives (all saints please raise your hands- Michael is handing out halos). And while I cherish Volunteers, unless you live in "never-never land" you do the best with what you have and strive to make each year a little better. Sorry if you feel I stepped on Volunteerism toes.

 

Lisabob,

 

I appreciate your position and fine words...I love teachers, feel they literally saved my life, married one infact and got a certificate myself 30 some years ago though I never used it...And while, as you say, teaching is not rocket science (it is far more difficult to do well) perhaps being so close to education you under estimate how difficult it is to find the hundreds of volunteer instructors (or even paid staff) with the spark, literally, the gift to excite others. True teachers are rare. And expecting BSA to provide more than most of the schools and universities in this county can provide does seems...I am sorry to say, like an unreasonable expectation. And this doesn''t even allow nor cover for instructor burn-out because replacements are not constantly fed into the system to relieve even the best instructors and the material also tends to be pretty dry..at least for most folks...

 

Perhaps I was trained poorly by professors who expected me to meet them more than half way...professors and teachers who asked more questions than they gave answers? Perhaps I am truely a dinosaur. But when I made the committment to help my sons troop I undertook to learn all I could, by myself if necessary, to get the JOB done.

 

And finally, here is a real bank shot of an arguement...consider if you will, our scout parents are not the classic volunteers...they are taking benefits from the program they volunteer to be a part of (unless you think the program in which their kids are participating has no value) One could even say our "volunteers" do not even have completely "clean" hands...They won''t pay the freight to have lively, good, engaging paid instuctors...and so they refuse the training from lack luster volunteers...hummm....How''s that for a wrinkle?(just gets better and better).

 

Both of my sons are in college now and I am slowly winding down my scouting career. But I take training; at the very least the basics for troop level activity as very important stuff...important enough to learn on our own if need be...even though the coffee always tastes better around the campfire...

 

Anarchist

[Lisabob 13]

Anarchist, I appreciate your views on this and I think in some ways we''re coming from the same place. Yes, learning means the student needs to do more work than the instructor, who is really more of a guide (or should be...I''m still working on getting this year''s group of college freshmen to see it that way!). No, teaching isn''t an easy job. No, I do not expect every volunteer BSA instructor to be fabulous.

 

What I do expect though, is basic competence more often than not. I think my response, probably John''s, and many others'', comes from the fact that we see little to no effort or improvement in presentation over time. If you go to district training classes over time and the same people do a consistently bad job organizing the training or presenting it, you begin to wonder why. If you find that they are not real interested in allowing new people to join their team unless they hand pick them (the "training clique"), it makes you wonder some more. If you discover that the people in charge are unaware of the existence of a standard syllabus for national trainings, or that they are still using a version of the training from almost a decade ago AND that they are not interested in tracking down the "new" material (or refuse to acknowledge its existence to start with, even when shown it)...c''mon now. If you know that these same people are adamant about staying in the positions they hold and are NOT doing it simply for lack of other willing volunteers, then there''s something wrong here.

 

Extraordinary moments such as the accident you describe (and I hope that individual is recovering!) aside, I find it generally unforgivable for the same organizers to fail (consistently!) to provide trainers with the material in advance, for the same trainers to fail (consistently!) to familiarize themselves with the material in advance or have a game plan for how to present it, for the district to charge higher and higher fees of participants each year, and yet to expect people to sit back and accept this as a matter of course.

 

Put it another way - if your district runs a terrible camporee program that is thrown together last minute and if this is the norm, not an exception, and if the folks who run the camporees don''t accept assistance from new/energized volunteers or pay any attention to constructive feedback, would you be shocked to see attendance at future camporees drop off? Why would we expect people to pay for this sort of treatment? People will vote with their feet.

 

Supposing that people really want to learn - then rather than attending horrible training sessions, you''re right that they''ll do the best they can on their own. Some will be fine that way. Others most assuredly will not and will go off in all sorts of weird directions. And none of them will meet the requirement for "mandatory training." We do a dis-service to the leaders and the boys they serve and the larger BSA program if we tell them to just deal with it, or if we say we offer training to help prepare them for their positions when, in reality, we do nothing of the sort.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Lisa,

 

You said it for me.

 

Eamonn, in another thread yesterday, said we are short 2/3 of our Commissioner Staff, nationally! The fact of the matter is someone becoming a Commissioner should be an experienced volunteer, who (imo) is ready to make Scouting a principal avocation. To do that, he or she has to be raised up through a host of training.

 

To me, that means we must take care of the novices. If they get turned off early in Cubbing or early in the Boy program, we''ve lost them as volunteers, forever.

 

We who''ve decided to make Scouting an AVOCATION owe the novice volunteers the very best training. It''s as simple as that. If we make it mandatory, that''s all the more reason to make it better?

 

The downside? Mom and/or Dad will say this is baloney, and we lose a kid from the program, forever! I have seen generation-to-generation "you will not be a Scout." It''s sad, but it''s true, and the pinpoint is something relatively trivial 10 or 15 or 20 years ago.

 

 

 

[acco40 95]

I dont like parents who bad mouth a Cubmaster or Scoutmaster but yet dont step up to the plate by becoming a registered leader. Im amazed at some of the comments Ive been reading on this post. Who do you think trains the volunteers? More volunteers! I just got done serving as staff on the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. Were all of the trainers top notch? Well, all were adequate, most were good and some were excellent. How many of you had training and did not or were not given a chance to fill out an evaluation form? If you dont like the training staff, by all means replace those volunteers with yourself! Who do you think is on the Commissioner staff? Again volunteers. What is the job of a Unit Commissioner? To serve the unit. Someone who states that a UC should have mandatory training but not unit serving leaders doesnt understand these roles.

Now, think about the task that the BSA has. It has adults who sign up to be registered leaders who dont have high school diplomas, some with doctorate degrees and everything in between. It is very difficult to create a training class to fit this wide variation of "students." Has all the training that Ive taken been top notch? No, but I can accurately state that all of the training classes that Ive taken had at least some partial benefit. Think of the Scout that attends a Troop meeting that covers first aid requirements for ranks up to 1st Class. That Scout may be a Life Scout and complain about how boring the meeting will be or that he already knows the stuff and doesnt need to attend. Oh, and by the way he doesnt want to teach or instruct at the meeting either. Well, some adults have that same bad attitude.

Personally, Im somewhat ambivalent about mandatory training. Some really dont need it. Our committee chair understands the program, is quite professional, knows the literature/publications, is an Eagle Scout, etc. and is not "trained" for his position. No big deal - he "gets it." Others in the troop are trained for their position but do not "get it."

Training is not a cure all but I highly recommend it, especially for SMs & SAs more than any other position in Scouting. As role models for our youth, how could I stand before our boys mandating that they take JLT, NYLT, Chaplains Aid training, Den Chief training and a host of other training and then not get trained myself?(This message has been edited by acco40)

[BrentAllen 10]

So, let me see if I understand this correctly.

 

UCs should be someone who is an experienced Scouter, who is ready to make Scouting an avocation. We are 2/3 short of UCs nationally.

 

Trainers should be experienced Scouters, who have already made Scouting an avocation. So, how many trainers are we short, nationally?

 

That has been the problem I have seen with training - getting qualified trainers to volunteer. When they don''t show up, you are left with subpar training and two choices - go home and complain about the quality of the training, or get as much out of it as you can and seek out others (Roundtable, etc.) to fill in the blanks, which is what anarchist was saying.

 

I would suggest a couple of changes if we really want to improve our training classes.

1. Break TDCs into separate sessions for different groups - Cub level, Boy Scout level, etc. Right now, it is just a generic public speaking course, including using some visual aids. Course curriculums aren''t included or even addressed. Program specific TDCs could easily include the curriculum.

2. Copy the Red Cross. They have put the First Aid/CPR/AED training sessions on DVD to standardize the training. Trainers are now facilitators. They are still just as important, but their roles have changed from actually teaching the skills, to observing that the skills are being learned and practiced properly. The BSA could put more classes on DVD and allow the trainers to be facilitators to lead discussions and answer questions after viewing the material. "Skills practice" could include going through the steps of planning out a Den meeting for DL''s, or planning a Pack meeting for CM''s, for example.

[anarchist 10]

All,

been thinking about this thread a lot...been thinking about all the less than "good" training I have taken to be a troop helper person...and truthfully most of it stank to some degree or another...but in the end I can not see it changing in any great or real way. As they used to say a few years ago time for a Reality check...

 

(and I hate to defend BSA on any issue)

 

The Facts:

 

Most of us pay peanuts for training (Woodbadge being the exception perhaps).

 

Most of us pay peanuts to "belong" to the organization.

 

Most of us complain loudly when BSA sends around the FOS guys and Gals ''cause it takes more than a few dollars to keep the councils coffers out of the red...

 

Followed by challenges:

 

On the unit level we are constantly fighting and begging to find really good volunteers. We have a tough time finding key people on the level of direct service provision (...just the place where we should expect the best results)

 

Most good volunteers, at the troop level, duck and cover when district or council volunteers are "called for" (especially me!).

 

Most District and council volunteers hear nothing but complaints (from folks like me)or worse...

 

District Volunteer corps tend like old troops to form into "old fa_ts" cliques...(after all when you are in the trenches and all the folks outside are tossing grenades at you...you tend form a defensive unit...)

 

Then, we expect BSA/council/district to wave a magic hiking stave and provide energetic, engaged, enlightened, up-to-date, open minded, unbiased, "no-baggage-here" motivational superstars...who offer to hold courses that fit our every whim and schedule need, right in our back yards, while cooking brats and brewing joe....and working up a couple of cobblers on the side...

 

Chorus: OF COURSE WE DO!

 

Reality Check:

I just finished taking a professional training seminar...Only offered a couple of times a year. Only offered in a few cities on each coast. The speaker/instructor was great! Cost was $350 for the day. Treatment was first class!

 

How many moms and dads would volunteer if we told them...Well let''s see; "Basics" will cost $200, YPT- $75, Safty Afloat/Safe Swim $75, New leader fundamentals $200, Outdoor training $400 for the weekend, CPR- $75, First Aid $100, Wilderness Leader First Aid $450 and then you will know what you are doing! (and you will be treated really really well!)....

 

I Think in the scouting world we tend to forget a little about reality...(how many of our gangs complain that $250 for a week of summer camp is extravagant?) When in fact unless you are ready to pay for a service it is difficult to provide a service for free or nearly free.

 

Just thoughts -not an arguement!

I still think if you want to wear the patch, you should be willing to do what it takes...

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Anarchist, as I was reading your post, the old Waly Kelly quote rang through, "We have met the enemy and he is us"

 

One thing for sure, sooner or later we all get the Boy Scout program we deserve

[LongHaul 10]

From a while back in this thread Brent Allen asked;

>>Interesting how the two different councils are handling that issue.