Help - frustrated with our CD

[scoutmom111 10]

I am so frustrated I could scream and so is all of my patrol. When we asked for an example of a ticket, they sent one that they said was approved... but when we used the same format, we were told we were wrong. I got a new format from Charles... thank you so much... Our troop guide is new, this is her first time on staff. So she says our tickets are fine, then sends them on to the CD, the sends back "suggestions" like.. Too Vague... that's it, no suggestions on what that means. Or like "WHat does 'Get' mean?" when we say we will "get the troop to be more aware of diversity by.... " I realize that there will be revisions but they aren't helpful... let alone written with curtousy, kindness or helpfullness. She even sent us a message calling us the whiney bears and saying we can either get with the game or not! She has left us a message on our yahoo group saying we are irritating. She doesn't use any of the techniques we've been taught in woodbadge. She doesn't listen, she doesn't use top down leadership, and her conflict resolution techniques are pitiful. We decided as a patrol that we would ask to have a meeting to clear the air. I sent the message since I am the one everyone turns to write things up (right now I am APL, but we try to use our best resources) Here answer was that she would only think about it if it came from the PL. She was on our private yahoo group. Most of the members have voice frustration! 3 times one of the bears... a cub master that we hadn't known before WB, has said he was done and he was quitting. We keep talking him into staying. He has submitted his tickets SEVEN times. I got 4 approved after 3 submittions and the CD's comment (to the TG but sent to me as well) was "we had to pull it out of her but she finally did the work". Our patrol is working together fabulously. We just can't get any direction or EDGE from our TG or CD. We were told that the TG is the one to approve the tickets. She did, but the CD turn them down and slottered them. Not a bit of constructive, helpful suggestions. If I were the CD and I had a new TG, I would set with her, explain what I want and tell her to put the suggestions in her own words. Once I see that they are submitting for the third time, I would suggest a meeting to go back to EDGE and keep there from being frustration. Okay, so I am venting but I am really not looking forward to the weekend. I'm so tired of her attitude. We will continue on ... but it sure is hard. Anyone have any insite here?

[Eamonn 61]

Back before the 21st Century Wood Badge Course came along. The Scoutmaster had to approve all the Tickets. (On the Boy Scout Course, it was different on the Cub Scout course.)

If???

The Course Director is following the Course Guide, He or She will know that the Tickets are not her concern. The final OK should come from the Troop Guide that is with your Patrol.

You might do well to contact your guide and ask him or her to go over Tickets again and explain what a SMART Ticket is.

When I was a CD,I did keep a copy of each and every participants Ticket, just in case it got lost, I also send a copy to the Ticket Counselor.

We did have a slight problem with one Troop Guide who didn't seem to get it, but I took him behind the wood shed.

Maybe if you have another Patrol Meeting you might invite one of the ASM's or the SPL to sit in?

I'm saddened to hear that this is being such a pain. Please take my word most CD's are warm and fuzzy, some even talk funny!!

Eamonn

Course Director NE-IV-153

[John-in-KC 311]

Scoutmom:

 

I don't know if it will help much. Here is the ticket format I used, which my TG bought into. I've copied it straight from the email where I proposed the item to my TG:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VISION: The YYY District Roundtable is transitioning locations to increase its ability to serve metro Scouters.

 

GOAL: By the end of the 2005-6 program year, the RT is fully settled in its new location. Normal physical arrangements are standardized. Assistance and help for 1st timers to any of the RT activities is up and running. Support for the District Committee, professionals, and presenters is available.

 

CRITERIA USING THE SMART ACRONYM:

 

- Specific: This ticket item involves taking the unknown (how does the YYY District, ZZZ Council, fit into its new Roundtable facility (AAA Church) and making arrangements for setup/teardown, and pre-opening to be KNOWN. It is less specific in that we need "the good idea fairy" to show us what works and what doesn't.

 

- Measurable: Our RT commissioner is starting year 4 of her tenure. Our Ventruing RT commissioner earned his Doctor of Commissioner Service with a thesis on roundtable operations. They will know, in their gut, when we are "at home" in our new house.

 

- Attainable: Not all things we WANT to do will be attainable. Resistance from the Cub RT commissioner may make "Wal-Mart Greeters" an impossibility, or it may be a sole burden of the Boy Scout side of RT. Figuring out what gives the best payoff in terms of people and resources is key to this item.

 

- Relevant: Roundtable used to be in a one-story with basement church. It's now in a 3 1/2 story church with 4 major meeting rooms and 20 possible breakout rooms. Getting ourselves to a standard operation is absolutely essential.

 

- Time based: The District Roundtable will continue for some years at this facility, but we need to have "our act together" no later than the end of the 1st program year after we occupy the new building (in other words, June 2006).

[scoutmom111 10]

I can't tell you how much it helps getting other perspectives. We've decided to give up on the CD not the patrol. We WILL finish the weekend. We have a reindeer that poops candy (hey, its something my 15 year old son had). So we decided that everytime there is... we get candy!

 

Oh, just one more vent, she complained that I used someone elses format (I added the How verified:). I was told I had no business going around the CD to the internet! Oh, and at one time they planned that we all had to have 4 guests at each meal... last night they decided that 2 was fine. It looks like they might have looked up a few national rules. It is her loss by not listening to our concerns. We've learned and grown... but she sure hasn't!! I will let you all know how this weekend end... and I will be working my tickets soon!!!

 

 

[orennoah 11]

I'm so pained when I hear stories like this. (ESPECIALLY, when it's happening to a Bear Patrol!)

 

Taking what ScoutMom111 says at face value (what else could I do?), it is clear that the Course Director is WAY out to lunch. PLEASE don't let this destroy your Wood Badge experience.

 

Also, please know that even Course Directors have bosses. AFTER the course, you may wish to correspond with the Wood Badge coordinator for your Council or Cluster.

 

Another thing you can do right now is to bring in the ASM for Troop Guides and your SPL. MAYBE they can reign in the out of control Course Director.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

Sorry to hear you are having a rough time of it, scoutmom! I don't know what is typical but I can say from my experience a couple of years ago that the second weekend was much more relaxed and actually a better learning experience for me, than the first weekend. We too had some issues with our CD, who has many strengths, but tends to be a difficult person to work with and often didn't seem to be "walking the talk." None the less, it was an absolutely worthwhile experience, for the network that WB helped me build, the renewed perspective on some personal goals, and the things I was able to bring back and share with my unit, both in the form of ticket items and other ideas. I guess what I'm saying is: don't let a poor experience w/ the CD diminish the value of WB, which is really more focused on your personal growth and helping strengthen your unit. Get those things out of it regardless of the CD and it can still be a "mountain top" experience.

 

Lisa'bob

[scoutmom111 10]

I have stayed the course!!! I made it thru as of yesterday!

 

The CD was still a pain in the ... bear paw.... She just cannot walk the walk. I ran into a lot of frustrated participants. I had 4 of my 5 tickets approved before I left. My last ticket "suggestion" was that I said I was going to have my Parent handbook reviewed by the committee and I would make revision. She responded "But will she change any thing" I had in the comments that distribution was up to the committee and the CD asked "How will she distribute the handbook... Does she ever think about what is next?" Sigh... So I (put my foot in the ground goffers hole... no... wait... that's something else) So I change the revision word to changes as needed. Hey, not every suggestion by the committee will get in ... please! I got done on Friday. The ones in our patrol that got done helped others including those in other patrols... we are all just WB critters.

 

They were just really really rediculous with the tickets. I agree that there should be fine tuning, but the CD did all the tickets. The average returns was 6!!! I think as an instructor, if my students can't complete a task with in 3 tries, then I haven't done my job in explaining, demonstrating, guiding and enabling! (EDGE - see I did stay awake and listen!!!) One

 

We got visited by all the "upper crust" people... you know the good old boys that have taken WB forever. They wanted to see how we worked together. Our patrol was awesome!!! We had it all down as far as team work.

 

You know feedback is a gift (It truly is!!) but only if it is timely. We didn't get any meal or site evaluation until Noon on Saturday so we couldn't even use the evaluation to improve! We did just fine so that isn't the issue. But again, walk the walk!!!

 

One of the last things they had us do was to leave the training area and be told by the SPL "Follow me".... okay... we walked about a mile, up hill, down... and 3 people had problems with walking distances. One man had a cane. But heaven forbid they change any of their plans do to someone elses limitations.... Hummm can we all say diversity together? When I got back from the hike, I was quite ill. My ticket COuncilor came to talk to me. I told him that the hike was just cruel. He appoligized. He realized that they knew there were people with limits and they didn't think about it. He said he will bring it up to the group. THe man with the can talked to the SPL and she also said they just didn't think but that was the way the CD wanted it.

 

At least I really like my Ticket councelor. He was the first one to notice when I was frustrated (before my own TG did) and he helped me more than once! I can't wait to get to work on my tickets!

[emb021 16]

"You know feedback is a gift (It truly is!!) but only if it is timely. We didn't get any meal or site evaluation until Noon on Saturday so we couldn't even use the evaluation to improve! We did just fine so that isn't the issue. But again, walk the walk!!! "

 

Uh, don't understand this. Did you not get breakfast? This is strange.

 

"One of the last things they had us do was to leave the training area and be told by the SPL "Follow me".... okay... we walked about a mile, up hill, down... and 3 people had problems with walking distances. One man had a cane. But heaven forbid they change any of their plans do to someone elses limitations.... Hummm can we all say diversity together? When I got back from the hike, I was quite ill. My ticket COuncilor came to talk to me. I told him that the hike was just cruel. He appoligized. He realized that they knew there were people with limits and they didn't think about it. He said he will bring it up to the group. THe man with the can talked to the SPL and she also said they just didn't think but that was the way the CD wanted it."

 

Uh, what's up with this hike? There is nothing in the syllabus for this. And to not be mindful of the participants ability is strange. On my course we knew we had a few people (include one of the staffers) who can't walk well, so we had a gold cart for that.

 

I know they had a hike during the end of the old course, but nothing in the new.

 

"At least I really like my Ticket councelor. He was the first one to notice when I was frustrated (before my own TG did) and he helped me more than once! I can't wait to get to work on my tickets!"

 

Again, this is strange. Your Troop Guide is supposed to be your Ticket Councelor. These positions are no longer separate, as they were in the old course. As TG I was the ticket counselor for all the members in the patrol I guided.

 

Some of the things you've mentioned makes me wonder if your council is fully using the WB21st syllabus, or if they are still using somethings from the old course.

 

[scoutmom111 10]

I think that they are using the old way and not the new way. We had to do all our own cooking the last weekend. We had meal evaluations and site evaluations, but we didn't get any feedback until it was too late to improve.

 

We had a hike Saturday night to a campsite where we had to use orienteering to get there. That night they did get a ride for me because of problems walking. Of course it was the SPL that set that up for me. She seems to walk the walk. During the presentations we were never given more than 5-10 minutes for potty breaks and drink breaks. It became a joke that when they finally gave us time for the potty they put us in a place where there wasn't one!!!

 

During the sessions we were often told not to take notes since it would slow the session down.... I did read the web site about learning involves listening, taking notes and applying... hummm... should I send that on to the CD???

 

The TG and TC are not the same people. My patrol has 6 different TC. It will make it harder to continue to work as a group, but not impossible. I would love to see something that discribes how the new course should be.

 

During one of the sessions, they asked us what could be done to increase training participation. They said that they will now be evaluated as a council on training. My comment was if you keep doing the same thing time after time and get the same results, why would you think that doing it the same way one more time will give you different results?!? The biggest complaint I've heard from people is that the info is great but the piddly stuff is frustrating. I didn't want to go to WB as it was described to me until I heard that the "NEW WB" was so much less frustrating... I still think it is odd that we did not get an evaluation form!

 

I actually have an e-mail from my CD saying that she took an oath to follow the syllabus and that is what she is doing.. of course she didn't specify WHICH syllabus **smile**.

 

My husband said that probably some of the council has been reading my posts. Being a good scout, I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't and haven't said to them. As a matter of fact, some of these comments is what made the CD send us an e-mail calling us the whiny bears... (helpful, friendly, courtious, kind... ) and another saying we were irritating. Oh, and I talked to the council person that is in charge of the WB course.... better to talk to a brick wall. He thinks I just want the cd punished.... NO (What do you want?) I want the course to be improved so the frustration factor is cut. I want the course to be uplifting, informative, and to have it follow the leadership qualities that they are teaching us. I want a Covey experience! And yes, I would be willing to put my time where my mouth is... I'd be glad to write up suggestions. And yes I know that not everything I suggest would be used ... duh... but feedback is a gift (it truly is)

 

Mama Bear

 

 

 

[orennoah 11]

Well, Mama Bear. It sure does sound like the CD was doing "her" course, a strange mixture of the old and new courses. She KNOWS she's doing it wrong. She had to go through much training by the region in order be allowed to become the CD. Since she knows that she departed from the syllabus in some major ways, having that word spread around is the LAST thing she wants.

 

Hang in there and simply smile at the "whiny Bears" comments. After all, you were lucky enough to be a Bear. And Bear in a so-so course is still better than a prey critter in a great course!

 

- Oren

WE3-41-03

BEAR

WE3-41-05

QM

[evmori 11]

I took the old course. Loved it. Got my ticket kicked back a bunch but finally got it approved. Had a great time on our hike! Singing & laughing! Great patrol. But then, we weren't bears. We is EAGLES!

 

"I'm a talon you, we're the Eagles!"

 

NE-V-120

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutmom111 10]

My dad always said that if you stay up with the owls you can't rise with the Eagles...

 

That being said, let it be known that on our Saturday night hike, the Owl got in first, the Bears second. The Eagles did beat the bobwhites however!

 

Our night out was fabulous. We got to bond on a different level.

 

I've heard a lot of people say they like the old way. I've heard the new one called WB lite! But I like lite! Bears hybernate...they like to paw thru the garbage for the good stuff. They look at VW vans and see twinkies!!! Remember:

 

Don't poke the bear!!!!

 

**Smile**

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Thats right, Wood Badge Lite, since I was forced to take Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, I shall always be garbage to those who did it the "right way" and shall always be less a scout than they are because they did it the "right way". And let's not have any talk about the elitism that Wood Badge encourages, after all, its not elitism when its a proven fact that the displaced version is of course vastly superior and those taking the new course are just pale imitations of what the end result is supposed to be.

 

Makes me want to rush out and tell everyone just what Wood Badge will get you, revile from the good ol' boys who got to take the "right way" and questioning looks from people who say they dont have the time.

[emb021 16]

"I think that they are using the old way and not the new way."

 

That's what it sounds like to me. (BTW, I went thru BSLWB back in 88, and staffed WB21C in 2004, just so you understand I am familiar with both. there has been a new revision to WB21C, but I don't fully know what changed)

 

"We had to do all our own cooking the last weekend."

 

Yes. That's normal. First weekend the staff cooks for you, 2nd the patrols cook on their own, and have a couple of staffers at most (but not all) of the meals.

 

"We had meal evaluations and site evaluations, but we didn't get any feedback until it was too late to improve."

 

I don't recall any such evals, but I could just be forgetting.

 

"We had a hike Saturday night to a campsite where we had to use orienteering to get there."

 

Hmmm, don't know the purpose of that. I don't recall that in the syllabus.

 

"During the presentations we were never given more than 5-10 minutes for potty breaks and drink breaks. It became a joke that when they finally gave us time for the potty they put us in a place where there wasn't one!!!"

 

Well, I seem to recall that we made sure to give breaks at appropriate times. And there was always a potty near by, so that was never a problem. Again, sounds like bad logistics.

 

"During the sessions we were often told not to take notes since it would slow the session down.... I did read the web site about learning involves listening, taking notes and applying... hummm... should I send that on to the CD???"

 

Hoo boy. I never recalled us saying something like that, and we tried to give out ample handouts. I know that on my original WB course our TG told us that and I was shocked.

 

"The TG and TC are not the same people. My patrol has 6 different TC. It will make it harder to continue to work as a group, but not impossible. I would love to see something that discribes how the new course should be."

 

They should be one and the same. We organized the patrols so that the members would be nearby. Not necessarily in the same district, but close enough. Plus the TGs were assigned for the same reason.

 

"During one of the sessions, they asked us what could be done to increase training participation. They said that they will now be evaluated as a council on training. My comment was if you keep doing the same thing time after time and get the same results, why would you think that doing it the same way one more time will give you different results?!?"

 

There is a quote by, I think Einstein, who said that "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"...

 

"The biggest complaint I've heard from people is that the info is great but the piddly stuff is frustrating. I didn't want to go to WB as it was described to me until I heard that the "NEW WB" was so much less frustrating... I still think it is odd that we did not get an evaluation form!"

 

Having done old and new, a lot of stuff has changed. Some for the better, some not so. But each person is different as to what they think is piddly stuff...

 

"I actually have an e-mail from my CD saying that she took an oath to follow the syllabus and that is what she is doing.. of course she didn't specify WHICH syllabus **smile**. "

 

Yes, they do. And I think I can say that the CDs in my council walks the talk.

 

"My husband said that probably some of the council has been reading my posts. Being a good scout, I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't and haven't said to them."

 

Undetstandable.

 

"As a matter of fact, some of these comments is what made the CD send us an e-mail calling us the whiny bears... (helpful, friendly, courtious, kind... ) and another saying we were irritating."

 

Bad form...

 

"Oh, and I talked to the council person that is in charge of the WB course.... better to talk to a brick wall. He thinks I just want the cd punished.... NO (What do you want?) I want the course to be improved so the frustration factor is cut."

 

Always a problem. You complain because you are unhappy and want things to change, but others only think you're a complainer and ignore your legitamate issues. Been there, done that, got a kick in the seat of my pants instead of a t-shirt.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Scoutmom,

 

First CONGRATULATIONS!!! Have fun working your ticket.

 

Want to get the CD's UNDIVIDED attention? I caution you, this is vindictive:

 

Send a letter of record, registered mail, return receipt, to your SE, Council President, Training Chairman and CD. Compliment the SPL (who apprarently DOES understand the sylabbus, and if I understand the procedures of WB, is the CD-Designate). Lay the issues on the line, and demand your money back.

 

Professionals do not like having to give money back