Frustrations With Den Leaders

[SeattlePioneer 144]

As a Cubmaster, I've been pretty frustrated with the program put on by den leaders pretty often, and not skilled in doing much about it.

 

A few years ago, I was a Tiger Cub Den Leader for Tiger Cub Dens in two different packs. I took the training and aimed to follow it, and had good results because of that. Since then I've led our Tiger Twilight Camp during the summer three times --- last summer I led two Tiger Cub Dens of six Scouts each, and I'm sure Scouts and adults had a cracking good time. One of my purposes was to train adults in how to provide a quality Tiger Cub Program in their packs this year.

 

I've taken all the Cubmaster training too.

 

But my experience in getting den leaders to function well is limited. I have a Wolf Den Leader who was a cracking good Tiger Cub Den Leader (and who took my district Tiger Cub Den Leader Training) He's going to be replacing me as Cubmaster as of the first of the year.

 

My Webelos Den Leader is a great guy, but he's spending most of his program lecturing to his Scouts on advancement topics. I've tried to encourage a more outdoor/fun program but he's mired in advancement hell.

 

I worked to get our Tiger Cub Den program started last May with newly recruited families, but that has been a big struggle. One parent took my district Tiger Cub Den Leader training in November, and his program last night showed some promise for the first time. There are some enthusiastic parents, but they need leadership to put things together.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that playing with children is a skill that takes a fair amount of understanding and some training to "get." And then some work and imagination to make it pay off.

 

If I try to intervene too much, parents tend to step back and let me do it. If I don't intervene, parents tend to flounder around without a good idea of what to do and how.

 

Despite the time and effort I've spent over three years rebuilding a pack that was down to one boy, I don't have the pack established as firmly and effectively as I would wish.

 

Any bright ideas on how to improve the leadership of Den Leaders by the Cubmaster?

[Stosh 3452]

I'll offer my suggestion...

 

I'm quite different in my definition of leadership and the roles of responsibility in groups. Whereas the decree style of leadership means the grand poobah makes the decree and then it gets passed down the chain of command to the last guy on the list. While that may work well for certain organizations, i.e. military, it doesn't often go well in an all volunteer organization, i.e. BSA, churches, etc.

 

So I reverse the "flow", which is generally becoming in vogue even in the world of business. Where I work the statement that just came out of our CEO (multi-billion dollar international company) is: "The person working on the assembly line doesn't work for us, we work for them." If one carries that to the Pack, what is the ultimate goal? Good program? Strong leaders? or happy kids?

 

Therefore I would envision some training as a unit commissioner for the CM. Then take those dynamics of that position and apply them to the Pack. View each Den as a "unit" and observe, evaluate, and ASSIST the DL to be able to provide the best for the boys, just like a UC does for a unit. After observing a den meeting, one might offer up some suggestions to the DL in the form of non-judgmental observations. "Did you notice Johnny in the back row nodding off? Maybe more play than lecture next time?" "Did you notice that Freddie didn't eat any of the treats? Maybe he should bring in the treats next time so he has something, too." "I noticed you have 10 boys in the den but only 2 showed up. Was there something going on at school?" etc.

 

A lot of times some of the DL's are so wrapped up in trying to do a good job they get overwhelmed with details and don't realize the ship is sinking. I think a lot of DL's would take even some negative heat from the CM if the last words they hear from you is: "What can I do to help you?"

 

A functional CM should be the first level of support for DL's. There's a lot more than showing up at a Pack meeting and being the emcee. Sometimes it takes rolling up your sleeves and helping a struggling DL. If the CM's name is not first on the list of someone to turn to for help, then there's something seriously wrong with the program and the boys are going to eventually suffer for it.

 

Just my opinion....

 

Stosh

[packsaddle 753]

Back when I was CM I was tickled to just get interested den leaders in the first place. I mostly let them do their own thing and the dens worked just fine. Each month I gave them the monthly theme and they were free to pursue it if they liked. If they had a better idea I welcomed those. And I always, always asked if there was anything I could do to help them out. I never tried to TELL them something but rather asked how they were doing, how they did it, what were the problems, if any that they had encountered, etc. I was lucky enough to have some really good, creative den leaders so I probably didn't encounter the problems you have but FWIW that was my experience. All of my problems were related to an un-supportive CO, DE, etc. We were on our own and once we realized that and operated accordingly, we did fine.

[Eagledad 2782]

Its interesting that you dont really mention the Wolf and Bears. That is very typical with most packs because those programs are designed pretty well for getting maximum performance with minimal effort from the adults.

 

However, Tigers and Webelos are the opposite in that they are heavily weighted on the adult side because they require more adult skills and adult time to get acceptable results.

 

We approached the Tiger problem by giving the Den Leader Trainer the duties of monitoring the Tigers and help move it along where it slowed down or got stuck. Officially they were a trainer for all the ages, but in reality the bulk of their job (80%) was Tigers.

 

Webelos is a whole different animal and quite frankly I think has to be approached case by case. We tried everything from finding the Webelos leader during the Bear year and training them then, to putting all the Webelos dens together to reduce the work load on the present leaders. But as for how to develop an easy routine for the Webelos to insure a quality program after you leave, its very difficult. The best we could do was leave a few traditions like special Webelos hats and special duties to assist the CM every meeting.

 

I even tried some ideas for helping Webelos Leader at the district level when I was the District Membership Chairman. These ideas included Webelos program training for Bear leaders at district events like Webelos Woods, Camporee and MB College. But it was still a challenge to get adults to come because they were either not sure they would be the Webelos leader, or they were too busy as Bear leaders. I think it would have turned out to be a pretty good program if I could have hung around for a few more years to develop a routine within the committee.

 

I had a few other ideas if you want to try new things, but as in most things new, success requires simplicity in the application and lots of practice to develop habits.

 

Barry

 

[momof2cubs 10]

The Webelos years are a pain in the butt. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it. While all during the Tiger, Wolf, and Bear years we are having fun learning and playing, all of the sudden the whole Webelos premise is about academic stuff. I mean, c'mon outside of Outdoorsman, what other pin is not incredibly academic??? I've been in tears for a week trying to make the Scholar pin even remotely entertaining. And do not even get me started on the Citizen one. Ugh.

 

It is my opinion that the whole Webelos thing needs to be seriously re-examined. At a time when we are preparing boys to be more independent and learning and doing on their own, we present them with a whole bunch of boring topics that require a whole lot of expertise to do. Not to mention that half of them are really boring.

 

And to Seattle: I have come to the conclusion that being a den leader is a gift like a lot of other things (like teaching and coaching for instance). Some people have it and are awesome, and others (like myself) do the best they can with a lot of help from the internet. I don't think it is something you can successfully train. Guide, maybe.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

I do not think a lot of Webelos is boring. For Forester take them for a walk in the woods, Athlete is neither academic nor is Aquanaut. Naturalist needs a field trip to a zoo or animal sanctuary, Craftsman is pretty hands-on...

[drmbear 10]

We've been having a blast with the Webelos Activity Badges. The last few months we did Citizenship and Fitness, just to get them out of the way. Yes, if all we did was the stuff in the meeting plans, it would have been extremely boring. Everything got connected to games and activities. Citizenship visiting historic sites and government buildings, building all the academic stuff into games. We had a football game with citizenship questions, etc. Fitness was done on a board game path at high speed, very funny. Then we did a jumprope thing in a circle, and when someone missed they went and got a question. There were other jumping and running games, with questions thrown in to determine whether you stayed or had to go back, etc. They were worn out after an hour of that. Now we are doing Scientist, which sounds like a completely academic thing, but the boys really wanted to do it. I sold our first meeting on the idea that we were going to blow something up and we would make slime. They did blow something up..... baloons, with baking soda and vinegar, and it was a contest to see who would get the biggest balloon - demonstrating Pascal's Law. It was hilarious seeing one of the guys covering his ears thinking something was going to "blow up." We balanced ping pong balls on the vacuum discharge (Bernouli) and we made slime. they even learned the chemistry behind why it works. there was lots more, and we have plenty more planned. Cub Scouts is all about doing. Even for learning the Boy Scout things for the Webelos Badge, most of the time we've spent learning it and talking about it is while we've been out on hikes, not sitting around a table. with every activity badge, if you start with thinking about what you can do to learn the material, and the boys can make it happen, then that is what you want to be doing. Handyman, working on a car, washing it (hey I'm getting my car washed), helping with yardwork, messing with the wiring in a lamp, etc. Craftsman, obvious, but make it things they'll actually like doing. Forestry, Geologist, all that stuff is outside. I've loved the Webelos pins because there is really nothing that we need to sit around discussing, except where we want to go to camp next summer, and it's time to do that now.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Whew! LOTS of good ideas, but mostly they tend to contradict each other!

 

 

Very little I'd disagree with --- but I still don't really have ways I'd confidently intervene. I'm afraid my attempts to intervene might be taken badly, too.

 

I've encouraged den leaders and parents to feel free to call or e-mail me for two years --- pretty rare I get contacted though, except by new parents.

 

I've done my best as Cubmaster for two years, and am planning to hand that off to my excellent Wolf Den Leader at the first of the year. I very much hope he will be better at the job than me. I've put A LOT of time and energy into the job, but perhaps I lack talent for that job.

 

In Cub Scouts, we "do our best." Sometimes that's not a high standard.

[Eagle732 27]

If I were ever a Cubmaster again I would run the Webelos program differently than I did before. Last time all Bear DL's advanced to WDL with their den. Seemed like the logical thing to do but some of the new WDLs had no intention of ever taking the Webs camping and knew little about the outdoors. Latter I thought back to my Webelos days in the late 60's. In my pack we had a Den Mother for Wolf and Bear dens but we you went to Webs the troop had a guy just for that job. He was a real outdoors guy and we did outdoors stuff. No more Cub crafts. I notice that most of the Webs I talk to today are pretty much done with Cubs by their second year. Of course finding that outdoor guy is the tough part, I might have to be the WDL too.

[drmbear 10]

I'm the Cubmaster, and I've had a busy year. First, I decided to play Tiger Den Leader for the first six weeks of den meetings. I wanted to get them an explosive start, and I know how to move right into the shared leadership model of the Tiger year from the very first meeting. By the time we were at the 4th Tiger den meeting, we had two of the Tiger Parents agree to be den leaders, and another as Assistant Cubmaster - I'm having him learn to work with his den first. I had great fun. Luckily, I had one of the other Webelos parents to take over on my son's den during that time. We're actually passing around the activity badges to all the parents of the Webelos den as well. Just makes it more interesting.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

MORE good ideas!

 

I agree with Eagle that a good camping program is the key to a good Webelos program. Unfortunately, my Webelos Den Leader doesn't seem to have that in his program.

 

And drmbear, what are your methods for getting the Tiger Cub Den off to a great start? I agree that is vitally important.

 

My method starts with recruiting in the spring. K-2nd grade boys recruited in May form a Bobcat Den and I act as the Bobcat Den leader while we go through the Bobcat requirements, do a terrific hike and hot dog roast and prepare for our June Pack campout where the Bobcat den is dissolved and the boys join their regular dens for the next year.

 

New Tiger Cub parents are encouraged to attend Tiger Cub Den Leader Training in June (which I conduct for the district) and then attend the July Tiger Twilight Camp, which I also conduct for the district. The idea is that by that time parents should under the theory of Tiger Cubs, and had some cracking good experiences so that they know what a good program looks like and feels like.

 

Unfortunately, that didn't work too well for me this year. The Den leader I recruited in the spring quit in September. The Den Leader I recruited in September hasn't done the job. I have another new Tiger Cub Den Leader who took my training at in November and seems to be promising.

 

But I'd be glad to hear your methods.

 

In my view, starting an excellent Tiger Cub program EVERY YEAR is critical to Cub Scout packs, and often it isn't done well. That includes my pack this year despite all my efforts.

 

 

 

 

 

[OwntheNight 10]

SP,

I feel your pain! This is my first full year as CM. So I've got my first recruiting class in Sept, I called every parent of the boys who had signed up, talked to them about their boys,and themselves. All the while trying to take mental notes for the parents I was going to approach about DL positions. Made my callbacks after the first den meeting (which I led, to try and give everybody an idea of what a meeting should look like) and pitched/offered the DL position to my first choices. None of my first choices have panned out so far, I'm actually down to my 3rd choices as DL's. It took some mining, but I found my gems. My TCDL is great, he really has stepped up and done well. He's even recruited another Dad to help out as the ADL. Wolf den is a different story, 1st leader not panning out, but 2nd leader is willing to help and is trying to plug along as best as he can. Luckily that den only has 3 boys in it, so the DL doesn't feel so overwhelmed by the process.

 

I'm thinking next year about having a seperate class after recruiting night for new leaders/parents. Our district training is usually about a month after the school night for scouting. I'd like to be able to incorporate some of the ideas to run good den meetings and some training on Scouttrack, or at the least, have resources available for the dens to pick through for meeting ideas. I made the mistake of not having the DL guide and How To book available at the first meeting.Or, I'll set it up as a "nuts and bolts" type of meeting. Here is how all these elements work together, Go See It resources, why is the uniform important, where to get craft ideas, how the pack operates. If I can get that information fairly condensed, I can get it to all the parents on the first night. My TCDL told me after our first committee meeting, "I didn't realize there were so many moving parts to a Cub Scout pack". That's one of those things we take for granted at times.

 

I really do feel, it takes about a 6-8 mos to have a good feel for how den meetings should run and the direction you want to go with the boys in your den. Well by that time, the year is finishing up, and your scrambling to finish the basic requirements.

 

I believe it is overwheming to be a new DL. Maybe a case of Too Much Information at once, all those manuals, flyers ,videos, requirements, uniforms. It's hard to wrap your head around how everything works together until you see it in action. Our District training is more of a generic "What Cub Scouts is about" instead of a practical hands on tool. The lady who runs our Tiger training knows the program back and forth, because she's done it for 20 years. But I think time has passed her up some. I love the Tiger program, but I also think the program as it was written actually plays down to the boys, instead of giving them a challenge to rise up to.

 

With the Webelos, I'm lucky to have the former CM as the WEB DL. She gets the boys out. There is usually 1 or 2 weeks they don't have den meetings at our CO. I've spoken to my Bear DL about this for next yr. That we shouldn't see the WEB I's doing schoolwork type of meetings. There is too much, going on outside to see and learn from. What's the saying, "Advancement shouldn't be the reason for doing something, but the effect of doing something."?

 

I tell all my DL's, that the the city we live in is our playground, and there is too much going on for us to ignore those happenings. Think outside the box a little bit, sign up for newsletters from the Parks dept, or from the city itself. Opportunities are always out there. Or at least talk to myself and the other leaders who have been in the pack a couple of years to find out what's available for activities or teaching opportunities. The boys will have more fun and it doesn't seem so much like work for everybody.

 

Gonna have to revisit your posts on recruiting in the spring to get dens up and running, before the summer.I'd like to be able to have an operating den by the time day camp and summer activities start rolling around.

 

momof2cubs: there is some gift to being a DL, but my best ideas came from the internet and I still use it to come up with all sorts of ideas and activities. I don't worry so much about having a perfectly planned and timed meeting, all I ask is "Did the boys enjoy it?" I get accused of not having more structure time and having more ADHD moments during meetings, but seeing those boys with a huge grin on their face, worth the paycheck every time. Best advice I was ever given, "Just remember, You get to be 9 yrs. old again, even if it's just for that 1 hr a week!"

 

 

[momof2cubs 10]

OwnTheNight: I know what you mean. The internet is a god-send!

[Lisabob 13]

There are a few packs round here with great Tiger programs, year after year. In almost every case, their Tiger DL is a long-term leader and not a parent from that year's crop of Tigers. I believe a couple of folks on this board (ScoutNut?) have done that, too. Seems to work.

 

Webelos is tricky. Honestly, I had more fun with our Webelos guys than at any other rank because we could (and did) do so much more and really get into things further. The boys were also old enough to take on added responsibilities. But keeping that excitement going for 18 months is hard, and burn-out is an issue for all (boys, parents, leaders), by the end.

 

Seattle, if I recall properly, you are retired, yes? That probably means you have a bit more freedom in your schedule than most cub leaders/parents. To be honest, as a working parent of a youngster with other obligations in our lives (school, religious orgs, other community orgs), sometimes I found it impossible to expect more time or commitment from our scouting adults. Even the ones who wanted to do it, were just stretched too thin. The few who had time tended to be unemployed/retired/home-makers.

[Eagledad 2782]

>>There are a few packs round here with great Tiger programs, year after year. In almost every case, their Tiger DL is a long-term leader and not a parent from that year's crop of Tigers. I believe a couple of folks on this board (ScoutNut?) have done that, too. Seems to work.