Troops Supporting Cub Scouts

[Gunny2862 11]

I want to support some local Dens and Packs with Den Chiefs and have Scouts who are asking to do so. But, the Scouts do not have a tradition of doing so (Our only known den Chief was the CM's older son while his younger brothers were Cub Scouting) and my local more experienced adults have made mention of having been "used" by Dens and Packs before. I don't want the Scouts to be disappointed when they go to the training, do the work and don't see any crossovers to our troop(part of THEIR goal for doing it).

 

Other than just sowing seed and hoping for but not expecting a return should I approach this?

 

Does traditional association with or without support from the old Troop trump new associations?

 

What do Dens and Packs REALLY, (A)expect (B)want and © get, from Troops and from Den Chiefs that expect the boys in those Dens and Packs to cross over to them?

 

Now that is a multi-part question!

[mtm25653 10]

I would not "expect" that the boys in a den with a den chief would "automatically" cross over to that troop, but if the den chief is doing a good job, the boys will WANT to join his troop.

 

A good den chief helps with activities, teaches skills as appropriate (like knot tying), leads games, acts as a big brother/friend to the boys in the den, and inspires them to want to act like him. Some boys are naturally good at working with younger boys (my middle son was like this), but all den chiefs could benefit from training - the den chief training/handbook gives the scout some tools to use. The den chief should be enthusiastic and helpful. If the scout doesn't really want to be there, he will be more trouble to the den leader, and may need to be "let go" from his position. The den leader needs to communicate his expectations to the scout (and also make sure the den chief's parents get the information they need, like times of special activities in advance.)

[Lisabob 13]

Ok there Gunny, I tried to write a SHORT response to your post, but understand that my thorough disgust with how troops and packs (fail to) interact effectively (in my experience as a former cub leader) is the major reason that I am now our troop's recruitment coordinator and the district webelos-scout person. Consequently I apologize up front for the fact that it didn't turn out short!

 

So, on to what I expected from troops (when I was a cub leader):

 

1) Most importantly, I wanted timely information. I rarely got it. Please do not assume that all cub leaders are clueless and don't begin to organize their programs until Sept/Oct or later! I'm sure that's true for some, but it isn't my experience, especially with webelos leaders who usually know their way around the cub program by that point. We set our den agenda in May for the following year. We'd solicit info from all local troops around that time, about what recruiting activities they had in the works for our scouts - even if the details were TBA, at least give us the month and the basic idea so we can plan accordingly. Never happened. What did happen was that we usually got two weeks or less notice that troops had something planned and they wanted us to attend. Doesn't work that way!

 

2) I wanted a specific and consistent adult contact person for each troop. In small troops that might be the SM but in larger troops I'm convinced it needs to be someone else whose job it is to keep tabs on the recruiting process. SMs who have 30 or more scouts to work with are just too busy to also do outreach to a bunch of cub packs, more often than not. And of course it also depends on the SM's personality. Those whose strengths are NOT communication (don't use email, never return phone calls, short on detail) aren't the right people for this task.

 

In reality, I usually had to call 3-5 people per troop, usually several times, to get pertinent info about any events. In the larger troops, it was a new person for each event so no continuity. Thank goodness I had personal contacts in all of the troops in my town (hurrah Woodbadge!) or it would have been worse.

 

3) I wanted opportunities to do occasional outdoor activities together, beyond the troop's recruiting events. For example, for 18 months as a webelos leader I tried to get some scouts from ANY of the local troops to come and do a cooking/skill night with our webelos, since outdoor cooking wasn't one of my strengths, or the other parents in our group either. Or, come and show our boys how to pack and dress for a cold weather camp out, in the winter months leading up to cross-over. Or, share with them some news about the cool stuff your troop has planned. Or whatever - but interaction that is a little more focused on the things boy scouts do would help cubs & their families understand the program and bridge the gap between cubs and boy scouts.

 

4) I'd have loved to have a den chief and tried for several years to get one, to no avail. I understand busy schedules, teen age boy attitudes, etc.. But I've become convinced that den chiefs who aren't merely tagging along to little brother's den meetings (often per force, because the parent is the den leader too) are exceptionally rare.

 

 

Now, as a troop leader, here are some of the things I would like from cub leaders:

 

1) Responses to invitations. If you can't come, fine, but please let the troop know. And if there's a problem (ie, the troop scheduled their recruiting event on your pack's meeting night, didn't give you enough notice, set the cost too high, etc.), please TELL ME so we can do better next time. In the absence of better info, people in the troop will make all sorts of assumptions, many of which are probably flat-out wrong.

 

2) Help from Cubmasters and Committee Chairs in contacting Webelos and Bear den leaders. Troops typically have the CM's and maybe the CC's contact info and they are relying on these people to share info with the Den Leaders. Half the time we don't know whether it has in fact been shared or not. Especially when we get no response from the pack (see above!) troops can't tell if it is because someone "sat" on the info, or because no one in the pack is interested in our activities, or what.

 

In my case I usually do know, but only because I have personal connections in many packs in town - and that's not the norm.

 

3) Please don't play coy about what troops your boys might join. If your boys aren't planning to join ours and you want to come to our webelos/troop activities anyway, that's ok to do and we (at least, my son's troop) will still be quite happy to have you at our events. Just please be up front about it. There is a lot that goes into preparing a troop (and program) for new cross-over scouts, and it is much more difficult when, at last minute, the troop discovers that they were being strung along by people who never intended to join.

 

4) Help families to understand that each boy/family should make his own decision about what troop to join. My son's troop, good as it is, is not the best one for some boys. The same is true of all troops. I'd rather a boy finds a troop that fits him rather than join a troop because the whole den is joining, just to drop out a few months later due to lack of fit. I think most SMs feel that way too, in my experience.

 

5) Understand the role that the YOUTH play (PLC and SPL in particular) in boy scouts. Sometimes planning goes astray or isn't as efficient as it could be, because of this. Please be patient, but also let us know if this is really becoming a problem.

 

 

And then...as a district person, here's both what I've been trying to do in the last 8 months, and what I see as things that need improvement:

 

1) We have provided CMs and SMs in the district with each other's contact info. However, we can't know who the troop has designated as their webelos contact person, so it is up to the troop to identify that person for the cub packs. And we don't generally get updates on who the Webelos DLs are until recharter in January so we're counting on the CMs to help here.

 

2) We have asked cub leaders to send us an updated webelos den roster about now, so we have more accurate membership info to share at the time when webelos and troops are (should be) trying to find each other.

 

3) We have put together a comprehensive webelos-scout transition packet that includes CM, WDLs, Webelos families, and SMs. (Cubmaster's Disappearing Packet). This is a new endeavor for our district and I am not sure yet how widely it is being used on the ground...

 

4) We've encouraged troops to raise their profiles in their communities so people (incl. cub scouts) are more aware of who they are and what sorts of things they do. At a minimum we're hoping that boy scouting will be a little less mysterious to current cub scouts & their families because there seems to be a big disconnect there, right now.

 

5) We're going to hold a webelos-scout transition training/planning session for the first time in (??) years, this spring. It will be aimed at bringing Bear and Webelos I den leaders, CMs, and SMs together. I'm really hoping that it will strengthen ties between packs and troops, beyond just the transition phase. We'll see though. One step at a time, right?

 

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

LisaBob gives excellent advice and I especially like the perspective from both sides. I, too, have been on the Cub and Boy sides of the recruiting fence. I remember well from my Cub days that the Troop with the same CO as our Pack did nothing to help with the Cubs except at cross over time. They simply expected the Webelos to join their Troop.

 

The points about communication and planning are key. Just as the Troop must work closely with the Den/Pack to get information about activities as far in advance as they can, the Den/Pack must return the effort by confirming attendance at the events being planned for them - and then actually show up.

 

On the Troop side (where I am now), for a couple of years now we have provided a Den Chief to 2 different Packs. It has not been a guarantee that a Webelos Den will crossover to our troop. We have actually only welcomed two single Scouts for the past two years. But, our Troop is better known now to the leadership of those Packs. At this time and for as long as I can remember, ours is the only Troop in town that provides Den Chiefs. Ditto the only Troop that sends Boy Scouts to help with pack-level and district-level pinewood derby.

 

I think many times Cub Leaders just don't know about the Den Chief program, so they don't ever ask. Then again, some do know, ask, and are given no response from the Troops. Part of the problem there, at least in our District, is that almost all the Packs and Troops meet on the same night of the week. I hear from Troop's Leaders that they don't want their Scouts missing a Troop meeting to go to the Den/Pack meeting. We've worked that out by our Den Chiefs working every other Monday with the Den, attending Troop meetings the other Mondays.

 

We have a CM and WDL who have asked at the past three district roundtables for any troop to help them by providing a Den Chief for their Webelos Den. No takers. I have spoken to them and while we currently do not have a Scout in a position to do the job, our troop elections are coming up soon, our current SPL will be stepping down, and has said he'd like to be a Den Chief.

 

Gunny, your post mentions other adults saying they've been "used" by Dens and Packs before. Having been there myself (yeah, I started a thread out there somewhere about it), I can say that it is certainly disappointing to help out a Pack by having one of your Scouts serve as Den Chief and then see no reward (i.e., Scouts crossing over to another Troop). Or, planning and carrying out an outdoor activity for a Webelos Den only to find out they already planned to join another troop.

 

We lose a great many Scouts during the Webelos to Boys transition. Something to consider is that while a Webelos Scout may cross over to another troop for whatever reason, your Den Chief just might have been the key to helping the lad decide to continue into Boy Scouts in the first place.

 

Lastly, all the guys I've known that served as Den Chiefs or in other ways helped with the Cub Scouts such as Day Camp or Pinewood Derby, have said it was one of their favorite things to do as a Boy Scout.

 

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

Thank you all!

I really am seeking information and am not defensive about this topic.(Nothing to be defensive about yet.)

 

mtm25653, I don't expect to get boys from any specific Den but do expect that when a Den is associated with a "feeder" Troop that they will coordinate with that Troop for their Den Chiefs if Crossing over to our Troop is really just not a consideration/possibility. And that such information would be communicated when the discussions about them wanting a Den Chief and our possibly sending them one are in-process.(This was a part of the "used" scenario mentioned before.)

 

Lisabob, Great, excellent, wonderful, and usable post! Thank you!

I agree fully about the lack of communication/ coordination between the BS and CS worlds. It is one thing I am trying to work on in my part of the process. However I run into the "What exactly is your agenda?" filter and I try to clearly communicate that while we do want to help we also need to further our recruiting efforts - not take positions that will dilute our recruiting while weakening a "feeder" association between an existing Pack/Troop, and disappoint our Scouts who want to do this in part for the recruiting effect as well as the other benefits of helping others.

 

gwd-scouter, thanks for the affirmation that I should take this as a Service and not focus on the recruiting side of the equation. I'll take that one to the Scouts.

 

Anyone else want to chime in?

[SMEagle819 10]

Lisabob,

You have hit the target dead center!

Many of the items you list as wanting from the troop when you were a WDL I can claim to be guilty of. Yes, communication could be better. Yes, an alternate contact at the troop other than the SM would be good. However, we did offer many times for the Webelos to go on a "regular" scout trip to see what it was about. Sometimes we would get takers. Other times, would never hear anything back.

You wrote:

3) Please don't play coy about what troops your boys might join. If your boys aren't planning to join ours and you want to come to our webelos/troop activities anyway, that's ok to do and we (at least, my son's troop) will still be quite happy to have you at our events. Just please be up front about it. There is a lot that goes into preparing a troop (and program) for new cross-over scouts, and it is much more difficult when, at last minute, the troop discovers that they were being strung along by people who never intended to join.

This has happened to us more than I'd like to think about. We did everything for one Webelos group (and I do mean everything), and all went to another troop that didn't provide any Den Chiefs or offer to take these Webelos on any of their outings. My scouts are very reluctant to be Den Chiefs now for this very reason.

4) Help families to understand that each boy/family should make his own decision about what troop to join. My son's troop, good as it is, is not the best one for some boys. The same is true of all troops. I'd rather a boy finds a troop that fits him rather than join a troop because the whole den is joining, just to drop out a few months later due to lack of fit. I think most SMs feel that way too, in my experience.

This almost goes hand in hand with the point made above. The boys had chosen to join our troop, but the parents elected to go to the other because "everyone else is going there." Many of these boys that crossed are no longer in the program.

It also sounds like your district has some good ideas on training as well. I know our district could benefit from something like you are talking about. I might have to talk to some people about setting one up for our district as well. We (all troops) can use all of the help we can get.

[ElyriaLeader 11]

Gunny,sit back,relax,thismight take a while,

As a WDL with a group of 1st years I welcome having a den chief, actually I might end up with 2 from different troops (I'm so lucky!) and I use my den chiefs a great deal (the Webelos love learning from them, and look up to/respect them a great deal) but the bottom line is this..when you talk to the cub leaders, if they have not used den chiefs in the past you're going to have sell them on what the boys can do for them,some of the cub leaders don't know what an asset these boys are...most of them think "great...what do I have to do for/with him?". As far as "being used", I am up front with all the SM's I deal with (I don't have a "sponser troop" thus there a several troops vying for my boys) that there is no guarantee of anyone coming to a particular troop in return for their scouts service to my den or our participation in troop/den activities, will all my boys go to the same troop?....I can say for a fact...no. In fact because I am having the boys interact with all the troops available to them, some of the boys are already voicing their choice of unit to the others .. why? ... because to them, that troop feels like the right "fit" to that boy, some will go to a certain unit to join siblings, but I have told all the boys again, and again, "what troop you choose is up to you, I don't want you to join a unit just because your best friend did, I want you to join the unit that "feels right" to you, because in the end you will all be boy scouts" and this includes my own son who is telling me he might like to try a unit other than the one I thought he would go to. The bottom line of it is this ... if you support the cubs in your area, they will come to you, maybe not En Masse, but I would rather have 20 boys crossover to 5 troops and keep them all in scouting, than have 20 boys crossover to 1 troop and lose 10 of them because they didn't feel like they fit in.

Whew!..I will once again step down from my rather tall soapbox, and let the next person take the floor.

YIS

[John-in-KC 311]

Gunny,

 

If you can, specifically detail an ASM to be "program-program coordinator." He listens to Packs for their needs and helps allocate resources to the task.

 

A quality I would look for in this man is a superb 1/1 mentor to your Den Chiefs. In a perfect world, they can report back on what they're doing and what their own needs are, and you approach more and more Scout-Run.

 

I've not seen this tried before, but if you get enough Den Chiefs out there supporting Packs, you might consider asking them if they want to form their own Patrol... that way the reach-back to Cubbing has a direct voice at the PLC, where program is set. You can also give them some special privileges for going beyond what other Scouts do in working the program!

[Eagledad 2779]

Hi All

 

>>Other than just sowing seed and hoping for but not expecting a return should I approach this?

[Gunny2862 11]

More great ideas and lines of thought I hadn't traveled down!

 

Scouters are awesome!

 

Anyone else?

[ScoutNut 147]

Gunny, keep in mind that Den Chief is considered a Boy Scout Position of Responsibility. It is not just about recruiting. It is not just about service.

 

As Barry mentions, being a Den Chief is a LEADERSHIP experience for the Boy Scout. If the DC and the Den Leader work together the Boy Scout will learn a LOT about leadership, responsibility, and mentoring younger boys. A POR is a learning experience for the Scout.

 

It is a good thing that your Scouts have a goal of recruiting more boys for the Troop. However, remind them that even if they feel "used" by the Pack, the Pack is being "used" by them also.

[awesome1_in_cc 10]

Gunny2862

 

We are putting on a program for all our area Webelos I & II's that includes teaching the Webelos 4 activity pins. Long Story short, we have two of our sessions as indoor (at troop meetings)and two as outdoor camping experiences spread out over 3 months.

 

What I have learned over the last two years is that you need to put in just as much effort into marketing to the Den Leaders and parents as you do providing a program for the scouts.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that no Webelos can drive himself to the meetings so you have to sell the parents on why you are their son's best choice. You also have to realize that not all parents are willing to let their son's make the choice of which troop they want to go to. I have had so many cases of Scouts that WANTED REALLY badly to join our group only to have the parents sign him up with another.

 

Is it frustrating when this happens, well of course it is but you have to keep pushing forward knowing that you are doing your best to help scouting as a whole!!

 

Good luck and keep doing what you are doing as the tide will eventually change in your units favor if you keep doing what you are doing.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[fgoodwin 23]

Eagledad: I was very happy to read your post.

 

I am aware of some troops and SMs that look upon the den chief POR as something less than a "real" POR. I see it as just the opposite: as a perfect introductory POR for that young FC Scout working toward Star.

 

One of the stated reasons SMs are biased against assigning Scouts to be DCs is because the service they perform is not in direct assistance to the troop, i.e., they help a den, not a patrol, and by serving as a DC, they are not available to serve as a chaplain aide, QM, or other POR which provides direct service to the troop.

 

Another complaint I've heard is that SMs can't monitor the DC's job because he necessarily does it away from the troop (and away from the SM's ability to observe).

 

In addition, some troops have implemented additional "qualifications" to serve as a DC (I won't call them additional requirements because such are clearly not allowed, and since troops are in fact doing these, they by definition must NOT be additional requirements, right?):

 

Some troops require the Scout to be at least Star rank to serve as a DC (I guess the thinking is that FC is too young to serve as a mentor to Cubs), and second, the Scout may not serve as DC for two consecutive terms (which, for those troops that use six-month terms, basically eliminates any possibility that the Scout may earn the DC Service Cord).

 

I think such shortsighted views ultimately hurt the troop in the long run: in one troop that I know that has such policies, the number of Webelos bridging in the spring has gone from 30 (2005) to 15 (2006) to 5 (last spring). The trend is not good.

 

Placing such hurdles to serving as DC has basically put this troop in an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" posture with surrounding packs (in fact, its sister pack, chartered by the same CO, has crossed only one boy in the last two years, and only one is planning to cross in the spring, but only because his older brother is already in the troop). As far as I know, the "feeder" pack hasn't had a DC from the troop in at least three years.

 

I'm glad that not all SMs fail to see the benefit of the DC POR. As others have said, the DC POR can be a wonderful learning experience for both the Scout and the Cubs, if the Scout is coached properly, and given a meaningful opportunity to show leadership in the den.

[John-in-KC 311]

Comments:

 

1) There is more than one way for a SM to monitor performance of a Den Chief. It does require a SM to make a phone call or two, or to drop in on a den meeting or two. Novel concept, mentoring out where the action is.

 

2) Further, as I've stated, what I see many good Troops who deploy Den Chiefs do is detail an ASM to be their "high cover." He's also the guy who goes to packs and listens for requirements, as well as shares service and camping opportunities.

 

3) If the Den Chief is doing his position at all well, he is, in fact, busier than he ever was in the Troop.

 

Fred, I'm just venting off of your post! I know you know all the above

[ASM59 10]

Hello,

 

I like what Barry had to say. There is a reciprocal benefit to the Troop for the services of the Den Chief; leadership development of the Den Chief.

 

But even if that were not the case, are we doing a disservice by pushing the concept of "service" within Scouting and then turning around and saying that we should be getting something out of this? Would it not be better to teach that being a Den Chief is an opportunity to serve the Scouts of the Pack, rather than to give the impression that if we go over there and do a good enough job, we might get something out of it (Webelos crossovers)? This also goes for providing opportunities for Webelos to join your Troop at meetings and outings - look at it as service.

 

OK, I know it is easy to feel like you've been "used" when you've poured your efforts into a den and all the boys go to another Troop; been there done that. But I always try to remember that true service is with no strings attached.

 

Just my thoughts on this...

 

ASM59