"Elected" Pack positions?

[clydesdale115 10]

Scouting friends -

After reading a separate post about elections for Troop positions (SPL, etc.), I have a similar query:

 

What's your thought on holding "elections" for pack leader positions (CC, CM, Treasurer, etc)? Our Pack has been struggling for the past year - leadership is really divided. Lots of "us against them" sort of thing. We have some very strong den leaders (and a couple of weak ones too), but the tension at committee meetings is as thick as pea soup!

 

From what I can tell, the idea behind having elections comes from basically an effort to rid our Pack of the current CC. After yet another "he said/she said" committee meeting, someone made a motion that we hold elections for all positions at the January leaders meeting.

 

How does this sit with you? Not sure how it jives with BSA intentions for leader "s"election, but there are a lot of ill feelings in the Pack right now. Maybe we do need a clean slate...

 

(Wish I could just stick with my den and nothing else!)

 

P.S. Our COR comes to maybe one committee meeting a year, talks loudly and proudly, then disappears :-)

[Lisabob 13]

Wouldn't this just take the "us vs. them" mentality one step further? What would the "losing" slate do? Would they concede gracefully and then work productively with the "winning" side? Would they sit out entirely for the year, or longer (hey, you didn't vote for me, why should I volunteer to help at all)? Would the storm off to another pack? Would they stick around but grumble about hanging chads until the next election?? Would this become a political grudge match?

 

Yes I understand where you're coming from on this. But I think this could cause more problems than it would solve and would probably alienate a lot of otherwise good volunteers from your pack.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[SemperParatus 1]

I'm with LB...elections will not solve your problems and may very well exacerbate them.

 

The adults need to learn to get along with each other and that can only come from a change of heart and a dedication to the ideals of scouting. I would have two suggestions for you to help begin to build a sense of teamwork and common respect among the committee members...(1) schedule a COPE/teambuilding event for the committee. It will get the committee laughing (again) and learning to work with and depend on each other that will carryover far into the future, (2) open each committee meeting with prayer to ask for God's help in having each committee member respect one another and be open to what each has to contribute to better serve the boys in your charge.

[fgoodwin 23]

Well technically, the institution head (IH) is supposed to appoint the charter organization representative (COR) who is in turn supposed to appoint the committee chair (CC). The CC and COR recruit members of the committee (MCs) and the committee is supposed to recruit the cubmaster (CM).

 

Does it always work that way? Of course not -- but since the IH and COR have the final say over all adult leadership positions, and since it is the job of the CC and COR to appoint the MCs, I don't see the MCs "voting out" the CC -- only the COR or IH can remove a CC.

 

But realistically speaking, if the tension among the adults is so bad they can't work together, then the COR should be approached to do something about it.

 

Does your pack have a unit commissioner (UC)? If so, invite the UC to observe a few of your committee meetings to see if he or she can suggest some ways to improve how you operate.

[ScoutNut 147]

NO - You can NOT hold "elections" for Pack Leaders. A Pack is not a Democracy. It is owned, lock, stock & barrel, by your Charter Org.

 

I don't know what possible problems could have prompted this, but someone in your Pack needs to get the head of your CO (IH), your COR, & your Unit (or District) Commissioner all together to discuss your Pack's problems. These people need to know that the unit is in trouble!

 

[sunsetscout 10]

What can you so if your IH is not involved at all and your COR is the CC?

 

In our unit, the CC is always registered as the COR because our Chartered Org does not want any "part of"

Cub Scouts. We are part of a public school (chartered by the Parent Organization), but the IH wants to stay 'politically correct; by not having direct ties with any Scouting programs.

We are not having any real problems, but it would be a good thing to think of in advance just in case.

Our UC is great, so we could go to her, but if the chain of command is IH-COR-CC then what would the UC be able to do if it was absolutly neccesary to have the CC removed?

 

Sunsetscout

[clydesdale115 10]

Thank you all for your replies - I knew I'd hear voices of reason here!

 

SP - amen to the idea of opening with a prayer!

 

fgoodwin and scoutnut - I believe our UC might be of some help in settling things a bit - I will suggest that. The CO (church) just signs off each year. The COR talks a big game, but he has been unreliable.

 

Lisabob, you are right - I suspect this WILL make the us vs. them get even worse. We could end up with some strong Pack leaders who really do want what's best for the boys, but what will we have done to those who will be voted out? And what if the vote doesn't go the way you hope - can you support the CC (or whomever) if they "retain their title"?

 

So how do you get rid (for lack of a better term) of an ineffectual leader? Is it akin to a corporate vote-of-no-confidence? Or can the pack committee members just tell the COR they want new leaders? Do you just go to that person and suggest they step down? Or are you stuck with a leader until they decide to move on?

 

My husband represents our den at the committee meetings (he is DL, I'm ADL). I stopped attending several months ago - too stressful for me :-) But of course I've had several contact me to make sure I come to the January meeting so I can vote! I absolutely LOVE our den - we've had them all since Tigers and now we're knocking on the door of Webelos! It's too bad we aren't much of a pack, just a bunch of assorted dens.

[SemperParatus 1]

"So how do you get rid (for lack of a better term) of an ineffectual leader? Is it akin to a corporate vote-of-no-confidence? Or can the pack committee members just tell the COR they want new leaders? Do you just go to that person and suggest they step down? Or are you stuck with a leader until they decide to move on?"

 

As far as I know, the COR/CO is the only one that can remove a CC (BSA can revoke membership but that is rare) and they can do so for any reason (including no reason).

 

If a solid majority of the pack leadership has legitimate grievances about the CC's performance then you should present them to the COR for possible action. The COR is free to do whatever he or she decides, including ignoring your grievances, removing the CC, removing you as a pack leader, or anything less drastic. Typically, it becomes an ugly affair for a group to force the removal of a volunteer from such a leadership position. You can try a personal, diplomatic approach which may or may not work, depending on the stubbornness of the leader to hold on to the position.

 

Beyond the reference of "he said/she said", it is not clear if this CC has done anything that warrants removal, with the possible exception of helping to create a divided leadership corp that hampers delivery of the scouting program.

 

Care to share the juicy details...we love the gossip.

 

 

[clydesdale115 10]

Pssst ... lean in really close to your computer - this is just between us!

 

Only kidding - not much gossip, just some inside scoop. At the beginning of last Scout year, we had a big changing of the guards. Military town, some key folks were PSCed out. This CC took over and the former CC became CM. Along with the Treasurer ($$$ has been a REAL problem - as in "missing" - another story for another time!) and Asst Treasurer/Popcorn Kernal, it has been awful. Because there have been such alliances, private email chains have taken to calling them the Fab Four.

Several real problems:

1. Probably the worst, the committee makes motions, votes for something, then she starts emailing around the next day saying how it won't work and we'll need to address it again next month - so much for committee decisions!

2. does not find committee leaders for upcoming events, so we've missed deadlines left and right

3. did not nominate anyone from our pack for district leader awards -my den families sent letters of support for my husband, I submitted his nomination, and he received District DL of the Year, no thanks to our CC

4. recruiting has been awful - just like last year, we have ended up with boys with no leaders, dens fall apart, they drop out of course

5. several times, she has passed along incorrect information (such as, "you only have to file one tour permit per year that will cover all your trips anywhere you want to go")- I'm sure that's a "training" issue (she has not attended CC leader training from what I know - we do not have a Pack Trainer)

6. we tried setting up personal accounts for the boys to encourage more popcorn sales, but she scolded everyone that we were just being selfish, and that if we were in Cub Scouts just to make $$, we were in it for the wrong reasons. She said that ALL the $$ should be for ALL the boys. (At that time, we didn't have enough in the Pack account to cover awards for that month!)

 

I could go on and on. I have chaired the B/G for the past 2 years (160+ people both years), but she gave me a really hard time last February about how my committee handled the $$. (We actually ended up making $53.00 for the Pack, but she was horribly disrespectful about the whole thing.)

 

I stopped attending leaders meetings after that. Since the CC chairs the Pack Leaders meetings, I believe she sets the tone for how for how our Pack runs. My final straw with her came when she sent an email over the summer about how tired she was of doing things and people don't support her. She actually said, "Now it's time for me to put my foot down!"

 

There is some evidence that the "Fab Four" is breaking up - she did not get any support for some one-sided promises she made at Christmas. The idea for elections was not mine, but to be honest, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to see her gone, but I do question holding the elections. I'm going to talk with the person who made the motion and see if we can try another way...(UC?)

 

We have thought many time of changing Packs, but since we are den leaders, we feel obliged to our boys first of all!

 

clydesdale115

 

(P.S. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all - I got a couple days of "Sorry, the page you requested is not available...")

 

 

[Cubmaster Jerry 10]

I used to belong to a unit that had similar problems. We had a committe of about 12. We did hold elections for positions simply because we felt that, as a committee, we wanted to help ensure that the right people were in place. By "right" I mean those who would help the Pack Go. It wasn't a vote of favoritism. Often there was only one candidate anyway and it was already one that we had decided would be good. Our elected people were were in until they wanted to leave. We didn't hold annual elections or anything like that. We had to vote a couple of people out but it was a unanimous thing based on facts.

 

This committee also had a clique of about 4 people. They would sit at the committee meetings and not say anything then go home and call each other and complain about everything. It was more of a nusiance than anything because they really weren't in charge of anything other than their den, except the PWD chair and that was his "baby" so that went well.

 

Sem is correct in that you can't (technically) remove a CC. Only the CO can. HOWEVER, since your CO is so hands off they probably don't know their responsibilities nor would they enact them if they did. Can I also assume that your CC probably doesn't know whose particular responsibility this is either? As such, lightening won't strike you dead if you vote this person out. Another, softer approach is to gently push her out by gradually assuming her duties out from under her. It's not nice, but if someone (perhaps a prospective CC??) starts planning things and otherwise slowly doing the CC's job, she will get the idea and leave or at the least not be responsible for anything important.

 

But before you do anything like this, ask your self if this person is truly preventing the Pack from going or is it conflict of personalities or other similar issue.

 

With my committee, as the CC, I finally had to pull out the "why you are a leader/act your age" speech. And although I didn't point fingers everyone knew who it was directed at. It wasn't pretty and only mildly effective but it did get some things out in the open and created a little less tension. There were others on my committe not in that group of four, that thought I should fire people who weren't doing their job. My speech probably riled them more than it did the four but as I told them, not doing a job is one thing, not doing it as good as you would is another.

 

Regardless, handle it carefully. Public perception and opinion can be swayed by a single voice whether or not it is true. That can hurt the pack in the long run.

 

Good luck!

 

CMJ

[captainron14 11]

Elections are a bad idea. You will just make thing worse.

Who is your CO? Why isn't your COR or IH getting involved?

Fred's advice is great, you UC or maybe even your DE could help.

If thing keep going this way, I'd "Vote" with my feet and find a more friendly Pack.

Good Luck!

[MarkS 11]

clydesdale115 said, "We have thought many time of changing Packs, but since we are den leaders, we feel obliged to our boys first of all!"

 

It sounds like the best thing you can do for your boys is transfer to another unit and take your entire den with you.

 

 

[clydesdale115 10]

Everyone:

Thank you all sincerely for your replies - and here I thought we had to struggle through this alone!

 

CM Jerry - as always, you give wise words to consider: the bottom lines is, "Does this person help make the pack GO?"

 

I had a long heart-to-heart last night with the lady who made the motion for elections. I feared this was only going to make matters worse - and could she offer support if CC was "re-elected" (no). She said she now wishes she had used the term "nominations" instead. The word "elections" set the wrong tone. However, some info from her:

1.Our COR was invited to the last leaders meeting and did not come, even though he knew trouble was brewing.

2.Our UC has just resigned, in part apparently because of feeling ineffective in her dealings with our CC.

3.Our DE is not interested in getting involved in individual Pack matters.

So today she contacted the COR again and made herself more clear that we would like to offer nominations for the different positions in the pack. Most will not be contested but a couple will be(like CC, Treasurer, CM?). It is the intent to pass these nominations onto the COR and CO for THEIR decision. Hopefully, that will prevent the need to "pick sides." In truth, though, we are ALL up for re-"s"election each year, as the CO has to approve all the leaders at recharter time.

As for voting with our feet, we have decided we will do just that if this "nomination" thing doesn't get us back on track. We would like to stick it out until the end of this program year (crossover is in May), but we'll see.

Ours has been a sinking ship for a year and a half - we are nearly dead in the water. That sounds silly considering we have about 60 boys (not counting 2 Webs II dens who are crossing over this month). But we're definitely not a pack, just an assortment of dens with ultra-hard-working den leaders.

Funny thing is, we have a SUPER-DEN! We have 9 boys, most since Tigers, most with 100% attendance, all year. We met all summer, went to day camp, resident camp, 100 other things. They really are overachievers and they leave the den meetings skipping like 3rd graders ought to! Our parents all come and visit with each other, they support us in every crazy idea we have, every goofy ceremony we want to do, every Bear Trek we want to take.

 

So why does the idea of changing packs seem so drastic? .....

 

Thank you again! Our leader's meeting is the 19th - can't decide if it's going to be Good, Bad, or Ugly!

[ScoutNut 147]

Since your UC has resigned, you need to contact your District Commissioner ASAP. He should be able to contact your CO/COR & help to resolve this.

 

Good Luck. It is a shame that with 60+ happy, advancing boys, a Pack might fold because the adults can't play nice.

 

Let us know how things turn out!