Tiger Cubs versus Daisies

[gungho4scouts]

Are Boys in need of more Mom time then Girls?

 

Reason for this question is that I just found out the GS 1. allow 5 year olds to join and 2. they don't use "Adult Partners". What is BSA logic behind the Adult Partners for seven year olds.

[fotoscout]

I don't quite know what your point is here, but very simply stated, little girls are wired differently than little boys.

 

 

[gungho4scouts]

Another way of asking; Are 5 year old little Girls more capable of being in the Scouts (without their Mom or Dad) then Boys 2 years older?

 

The point I'm trying to make is; is there a real need for Adult Partners given that Tiger Cubs is now considered a rank and a member of the Pack?

 

I can see keeping the rules regarding Day Camps, Overnighters and alike. But the program seems more to spark the interest of the parents versus that of the Boys. And I'm not 'wired' to host parties, much less develop a program that encompass both parents and expect to keep the Boys interested and having fun too! Love to see a "How to" book on that one!

[fotoscout]

Well for starters, Daisys start in Kindergarten, and Tigers start in First Grade. Thats only one year difference.

 

There are very real reasons why parents need to be with the Tigers. The first and simplest reason is that the Tiger Program, like all of Cub Scouts but more so, is a family based program. The intent is to have the boy and his family be involved in the program. You are not supposed to leave the meeting and forget about Scouts until the next meeting. You should be doing some CS activity with your son in between meetings.

 

Next are the boys and the leader. The overwhelming majority of leaders have no professional training, experience, or knowledge about how to handle a group of 6 year old boys. Especially when the group size is trending upward and parental discipline is trending downward. Add to it, an untrained leader and you have a recipe for disaster. Boys this age are for the most part still short circuited. Even one hour can be an eternity after the boys have had a few weeks to become comfortable with each other.

 

Now we get to the parents themselves. Some of what should be happening in a good Tiger Den is the nurturing of new leaders. If the parents arent at the meetings, there is less of chance that they will become leaders in the future. The parents should be getting an education about Scouting in the process.

 

And finally, there is the ever present liability issue. BSA says that the parents should be there! If you elect to do it differently and have a problem, BSA will not stand behind you. You are now in a heap of big trouble!!!!!

 

If you could pick an choose your Tigers, and limit the size of your den you could probalby make it work from the boys perspective. But in reality you can't do either of those things. So your best to stick with the program.

 

[ScoutNut]

Please do NOT compare GSUSA and BSA. They are simply 2 VERY different programs. They are NOT comparable.

 

Daisy Girl Scouts do not have Adult Partners because that is the way their program is. GSUSA does NOT involve the family in the same way that BSA does. Parents are not EXPECTED to work with their child on achievements and are not allowed to sign off on their completion. Parents are encouraged to volunteer to help out with different activites. However their activites are strictly at the troop (or above) level. As I said, 2 VERY different programs!

 

Cub Scouts is a VERY family oriented program. Not just Tigers, but all levels of Cub Scouting. Family Understanding is one of the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting. BSA uses the Tiger TEAM of adult (any caring adult 18+ not just "mom time") and boy, along with shared leadership in the Tiger den, to help Tiger families understand Cub Scouting and also strenthen family ties.

 

As a BSA leader you are not expected to host "parties". You are also not expected to develop your own program. The program has already been developed for you. It is a year round, family & home centered program, which does encompass the parents. It is a program that, done correctly, does keep boys interested and having fun at the same time. Fun & Adventure, another purpose of Cub Scouting. As a BSA leader you are simply expected to follow the program.

 

BTW - you should be having fun too!

[gungho4scouts]

It seems to be too many Chefs stirring the pot. Look at every other post on this and other sites and the trouble area is the Tigers. I've been to the training, and it's been great for things with the little guys. But where is the training for how to deal with parents? IMHO all parents should attend the leadership training if that's part of the reasoning for Adult Partners. You are expecting old and new leaders to deal with parents who want it their way. It's like being the quarterback who has to deal with the armchair quarterbacks on every play. I know, I know, it's each parent per month, blah, blah, blah. So the program is allowed to suffer to weed out the next set of potential leaders?

[fotoscout]

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. The same goes for adult leaders. Training doesnt insure that your den will be successful. Its always about leadership, this time its adult leadership.

 

Sure there is supposed to be shared leadership, but there is also a Den Leader, and that persons job is to present the program.

 

If the parents dont want to behave, then use the sign and stop the meeting. Remind everyone that the boys learn from the behaviors that they see, and in cub Scouts everyone even the parents show respect. When its time to be quiet and listen, everyone needs to be quiet and listen, Parents too!! Dont be afraid to use these words, the parents expect you to be the leader. Be one!

 

If youre going to walk the walk, you have to talk the talk. Tell the parents what behavior you expect from them. Tell them how the program works. Tell that in order for the program to work they have to participate.

 

[Eamonn]

I have had very little dealings with Girl Scouts or the programs that they offer.

I was told that the reason why Tiger Cubs start a year later had a lot to do with little boys maturing later than little girls.

I have seen some really outstanding Tiger Dens and some that were very weak. I can say the same about every other Den. It depends on the Den Leader.

We have in the District a really good Troop and a new Crew, which all sprung from a successful Tiger Den. These guys and their parents have been together for a very long time, they learned how to work together while they were Tiger parents. The Tiger Den Coach as she was then is now the Troop Committee Chairperson, she is a great Scouter and a good leader.I'm really happy that when the time came she had a little boy and not a girl!! I know that she would be a good leader no matter what program. She manages a Landscaping business, I don't know how many crews she has, but they are all big guys and they know that she is the boss. Kinda like the Maggie Thatcher of landscaping!!

Eamonn

[Eagledad]

Hi All

 

The GSUSA and the BSA have two very different objectives. The GSUSA used the Daisy program as the begining for girls. THe BSA used the Tigers as the begining for the whole family. The Daisy program has been successful for a long time. I want to say at least 40 years or more. The BSA has been struggling with Tigers for almost 25.

 

Barry

[gungho4scouts]

I like to know your thoughts on the GSUSA Daisy program.

[Eagledad]

>> like to know your thoughts on the GSUSA Daisy program.

[KoreaScouter]

My daughter joined GS at Brownies, so we didn't go through the Daisy program. But, I saw a lot of their meetings and activities.

 

Why does GSUSA allow 5-year-old Daisies? Because they can. Perhaps I'm stereotyping here, but I've got one of each at home, and girls are different. My daughter is much more squared away overall at 11 than my son was at 11, and that goes for every other year, too. I imagine (and fervently hope) that the difference will narrow the older they get, but it is what it is.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with Fotoscout's assertion that the adult partner concept is intended to recruit future leaders, but I will say if that's the intent, it may have the opposite effect if we're doing it at the Tiger age. Way too much revolving-door turnover at Tiger/Wolf age and unless the DL's recycled, he's lost too. I'd try to suck them in at Bear/Webelos age, if we're really trying to grow future long-term leaders. If the family's in their third year, they've shown some commitment and have at least some experience with the program, even if it's been on the receiving end.

 

KS

[NJCubScouter]

The Daisy program has been successful for a long time. I want to say at least 40 years or more. The BSA has been struggling with Tigers for almost 25.

 

For whatever it is worth, the "timing" of the Daisy program in particular sounded "off" to me, so I looked up both: Daisies was introduced in 1983, Tigers in 1982. Originally Tigers was for 7-year-olds, then in 1986 (as part of the overall shift from age to grade as the usual "divider" within the Cub Scout program) it was opened to boys in the first grade OR who had turned 7. As we have discussed in this forum on many occasions, most children are 6 when they start first grade, and some are 5, depending on the local "cutoff date." Depending both on the "cutoff date" and on when the school year ends, one-third to one-half of children are still 6 at the END of first grade. So as someone else pointed out, it is usually just a one-year difference between Daisies (kindergarten) and Tigers (first grade.) This age range for Tigers is probably true in well over 90 percent of cases, because as I understand it, while LDS-chartered packs go by age and not grade, they also do not use the Tiger program. (If that is incorrect, someone please correct it.)

 

I have said before, I don't think the BSA should feel compelled to have a kindergarten program just because GSUSA does. Others have mentioned the differences between the programs, and the differences between boys and girls. It's nothing too scientific, but from my own observations, 5-year-old boys are pretty much incapable of paying attention, while 5-year-old girls at least have a shot at it. (Of course after the troop meeting I witnessed last night, you can add a "1" in front of the "5" and unfortunately it doesn't seem to get much better, just different.)

[Eagledad]

Thanks NJ, I was thinking back to my sisters and thought they were Daisys in the 60s, butI guess not. Hmmm, I wonder what they were, Brownies?

 

I am also one that suggested a kindergarten Tiger program like the GSUSA, but not because the GSUSA has one. I only suggest it because I think it is the next best solution to killing the Tiger program completely. IF we are to be stuck with Tigers, then lets try to do it better and look at the Daisy program.

 

Happy Scouting All

 

Barry

[gungho4scouts]

My Son and I want to be in Cub Scouts but with everyone's different interpretations all I want to do is just quit.

 

My problem is that every parent is overloading the program with what they think it should be. Although never a Scout in my own youth, the ideals, patriotism and reverence to God carried over from my late fathers own experience in the Scouts. Wanting to do it right and "Be Prepared" (pun intended) I've read everything I could get my hands on. Despite the preparations, nothing in the Fast Start or Leader Specific prepares you for parents with their own ideas of how it should be. Let me clarify something before I make my next statement. In my short tenure as a newbie leader, I've meet, was trained by, and admire the Women in Scouting. What sets them apart from my next statement is that they get it, know it, and live it! Now, the part that will certainly get me into trouble. The problem I have is the know it all mothers.

 

Examples:

 

o The "women" jump on me for going out and preparing for the first Den Meeting without consulting them.

o Part of the appeal at Join Night was that all of the Den's meet every week except Pack week at the CO. Simple to remember, assured a place to meet, and the ease of where to meet. One of the mothers "suggested" that we only have the Den meetings once a month just like they done it last year. Despite what the literature had outlined, (i.e. page 1 of the Service Catalog) and at Join Night, did a quick consensus check, and the majority wanted to keep it as it was, every week expect on Pack week.

o I agreed to changing our meeting an hour earlier, even accommodating one of the Fathers who doesn't get home by that time. But apparently the frequency of the meetings was still an issue, because one of the mothers went to the PL meeting (and extended the meeting time by an hour and a half to) finally getting her way. I couldn't say anything because being a good newbie that I am, I was at training that happened to be the same night as the PL meeting.

 

But that wasn't enough turmoil for a Den to endure. It finally boiled over to the point that I choose, no one asked, to step down thinking the problem with me and my desire to keep the turmoil away from the Boys. All of this before our first Pack meeting. Just in case you are wondering, none of the Fathers had a complaint. Too boot, I suspect that a deal was made between the Pack Leadership and "new" TDL due to the her attitude during a Parent's meeting prior to me stepping down.

 

Now the Den meeting place gets shifted from house to house, with the meeting times that changes with each movement. No mention of the ideals of the BSA, just arts and crafts. The new "TDL" will linger off, not even participating in the Den activities, and the worst part, shows up at Pack, Go-See-It's and Den meetings not in uniform. The Leadership considers this all part of the growing pains and keeps suggesting that I just wait it out. But my Son isn't getting any younger, and it's his participation is what I thought matter the most. According to assessments given here, (which makes sense to me after the grief), Tiger's are more for getting the Parents acclimated to the program and recruiting them for leadership. IMHO that's like putting the cart before the horse and the Boys are waiting in the cart. When emphasis is more on the recruitment instead of the purpose, the intent is being lost.

 

The worst part of remaining in the Pack is the feeling of being an outsider. Which isn't helping my enthusiasm for the Scouts, and unfortunately it's affecting my Sons attitude. Or is it I who just doesn't get it...