High Adventure trips: To Buy or not to Buy.

[johnmbowen 10]

This is from the end of the Co-Ed Scout question which started talking about rafting as a high adventure draw to keep Scouts going.

 

I am a big believer in what the Scouts call High Adventure meaning most any trip not to a Scout Camp or next to cars. Trips like this, in my experience, are what the Scouts really want. OK advancement is part of the ethos too, but the reward is often the outdoor activity. High Adventure retains the kids as they grow older. They crave it and would treasure the technical skills enabling them to duplicate these events themselves.

 

So here is the problem, and it is perhaps one of presentation, what you want the Scouts to see and do about these High Adventure trips.

 

Not all Troops have the capability of easily mounting climbing, rafting, mountaineering tripsthey kind of events that are liberally illustrated in the Handbook, and on those glitzy ads on TVlike the Scout a pendulum line on a rock face who has retrieved a rock climbers billfold. So what do they dosay for raftingthey go the way Corporate America wants them to gothey BUY IT, and go as mere tourists. Clients of professionals, rather than as a full participant. A tourist who is taken along, pampered, and who pays for admission like at Disney Land. It is all safe and sound, someone else is to blame if things go wrong, and the Scout is given the idea that this is the ONLY way to experience High Adventure. This even extends to the more common Scouting experience of going to a High Adventure Scout Camp for this experience, including Boundary Waters or Philmont where you are provided with most of the amenities.

 

Is that the behavior we want to demonstrate to our Scouts. Do you want to teach them to be a tourist, or an outdoorsman?

 

Me, I am for the outdoorsman. Leave them with a useful lifetime skill.

 

Not that I am against the use of professional guides, I am one, and part owner in a rafting/climbing company. I know from experience that a raft trip on Class IV (which believe it or not is usually Class III but the guides tell you different) for a kid is NOT as good as a trip where he actually learns to RUN the boat on even Class II. Learning and doing real climbing on real rocks is far preferable to most Scouts than going to some gym where the experts teach you. Teach them to DO it so they can DO it THEMSELVES.

 

I say LEARN it dont BUY it. I think too many units Buy it.

 

 

[Mike Long 10]

Amen.

[Bob White 20]

I agree that adventure is important, but not all units have the human resources to be good at all, or any, high adventure outdoor skills.

 

If they have someone qualified to take them caving or rappelling or on white water activities thats a real plus. If the leaders are willing or able to take the time to get trained so they are competent and confident in teahing those skills that's terrific. If a unit needs to hire an individual or organization so that they can get experience or training to have a high adventure opportunity that's fine too.

 

How they get adventure in their program is not as important as getting adventure in their program.

 

Just my opinion,

Bob White

[nldscout 18]

you say learn not buy. But lets look at this in practical terms. Rafting, You need rafts and all kinds of safety gear. If my troop of 25 had its own rafting equipment we would have to Raise 10-15 thousand to be able to do it properly. all for a couple of trips a year at most. Is that worth it? What other parts of the program do we cut out to do that. Then we need someone who is experianced in the river we are doing, and as you said, when river levels change that makes a whole lot of difference. Another problem around our area is access to rivers as most are restricted access and you must have a qualified guide to launch.

 

We try to do a number of trips like rafting, canoeing, climbing each year. Not many troops could afford to buy all that equipment. When use a professional, we are renting the equipment along with the guide.

 

So when we look at this its sometimes is a money vs program issue. I can provide a variety of activities by using commercial companies vs trying to raise a whole lot of money to buy the equipment to do the same thing

[le Voyageur 72]

Have to agree with all that has been said...best advice is to beg, borrow, make, and rent the gear you need starting with the resources held by your Council's summer camp.

 

For guides, bribery, like free food, and covering out of pocket expensives can't hurt.

 

Also, don't look a gift horse in the mouth (i.e., I've offered my services to the local council and district here to guide river treks, as well as long distance cycling treks for Venture Crews pro bono. Seems that no one is interested, so I provide this service to another council that is).

[le Voyageur 72]

[Dang editor]

 

Wanted to conclude the last paragraph with...

 

"So look for the hidden talent in your district and council...you could be suprised by what you find is available."

 

LV

[Mike Long 10]

Man, we read the same thing and get completely different information.

 

It's the quality of the trip.

 

My issue is with HA guided trips where the boys don't learn anything. Many guided trips that I and others I know have been on, the scouts were treated as tourists on a amusement park ride and not active participants. I prefer HA trips guided or not where the boys are treated as active participants and are taught the skills necessary to do the activity.

 

Shoot the rapids.

Vs

Learn how to shoot the rapids.

[eagle90 125]

A lot depends on the commercial outfitter you pick. We use an outfitter in the Boundary Waters who is a long time scouter (silver beaver, vigil honor, etc.)He has special rates, gear, and trips designed especially for scout groups. And while the BSA has a base near him, we have used both and found the equipment, food, and service supplied to be much superior to BSA for only a few dollars a day more.

 

We also have been Whitewater rafting on the New River through a private outfitter who also caters to scouts with special trips and guides who are certified BSA MB Counselors. That way our scouts can earn the Whitewater MB while there.

 

You have to check around and ask about special scout packages. A lot of them do.

[johnmbowen 10]

Good...hit a nerve. This is a real gripe with me as well.

 

To answer Bob, I am fully aware that not all Troops are capable of buying rafts, or other gear...DONT. Our Troop is not capable either, I even have to help some kids with money just to come on outings. With my help in looking through newspapers though, they bought one used raft, frame and oars. However, that is not the point. The point is that the High Adventure should be taught to the Scouts such that they can actually do the trip when they later want to go. A lasting legacy, not just a badge.

 

What is important is if you DONT have the resources within the Troop...Find them! Ask them, and they will come. As Le Voyager stated, there are people out there who can help, and will...if only you will ask them! My outdoor buddies and I have helped our Troop become the bug High Adventure power house that they are now, and we would not have been able to offer what we have without their help. Only after nearly 10 years are our own Scout graduates taking over with high adventure training. One works at the local climbing gym, and the other is a whitewater guide. They led a trip to Moab for the new Scouts last month featuring mountain biking and climbing...GOLD!

 

Le Voyager also mentioned a disturbing trend that I have also encountered when volunteering what outdoor expertise I have outside my local area...NO INTEREST. Arrogance? (I think so.) I once volunteered to teach a Red Cross Certified Wilderness First Aid course to Scouts, parents and Scouters ONLY, only to have a 'Big Scouter' a nay-sayer, who had only briefly looked in at the class, state that this was only what the first aid merit badge taught, so why bother? (As a result of this and many other examples, I've decided not to do "advanced" Scouter training like wood badge...why bother?)

 

The moral?

 

The help is out there...don't be arrogant and don't be shy to ask if they dont wear a funny brown shirt. ASK THEM! (Maybe they won't notice that you wear a funny brown shirt). They have gear, they have expertise and experience, (usually more than you). They will help. They will teach. They worry about the next generation of outdoorsmen too.

 

Think outside the box.

 

Realize that there are people out there that do outdoors stuff all the time and at a level far higher than Boy Scouts. Look at Le Voyager's profile! Scouts are lucky to get him. An applicable story: In a conversation with a high adventure friend, who was also a USPS Ranger who when I mentioned I helped out a Scout Troop said, "We always cringe when a Scout Troop wants to come into the Park back country since a rescue might be emminant." (ie, poor preparation and expertise) The answer was given last year to the ASM leading our young kids on an easy top roped ice climb we do every spring when an SAR group at the same place on finding that they were Scouts asked, "Arn't you that good high adventure Troop? "Glad to meet you guys." (I'm not making this up...I have pictures)

 

I found them, I play with them and treasure their acquaintaince:

I have a friend and ASM Specialist who is a great vertical caver, NSS member...done sherpa duty in Lechaguilla.

 

Got another who is a high altitude climber...done Mt. Blanc, and a good 20 of the 50 classic climbs.

 

Have several who are professional rafters and private boaters who are thrilled to help out Boys who ask.

 

Several friends are rock climbers who range from good to human fly, and have been pleased to take along

Scouts, even to the International Climbers Festival.

 

They have all been CO-OPTED TO SCOUTING! (I get to go on their trips too.) (A quick note: After these guys get involved...they don't need to be bribed! They too have helped monitarily to make sure some of the poorer Scouts can come on the trips they support, they pay their own gas, and have NEVER asked for a free ride, so pleased they have been to share their expertise with the next generation.)

 

If there is no one you know...ask around. The rest comes with it.

 

You don't have to buy your expertise, nor their equipment, and they are often glad to share. (unless they have been burned by Big Scouters.)

 

The look on the face of the 11 year old who has just successfully run his first Class II will tell you the

right answer. The realization that the 18 yr old that just became your ASM and wants to lead the oldest boys

to climb Devil's Tower, and you know that he can do it safely...as he has done it twice before is success.

 

OK so the next bit...What about BSA certification, real expertise and help, liability, and being responsible for yourself???

 

[Bob White 20]

Johnmbowen wrote "To answer Bob, I am fully aware that not all Troops are capable of buying rafts, or other gear...DONT"

 

John you got the wrong guy! That wasn't me that said that, And no need to shout, i don't sit that far from the monitor.

 

Bob

[eisely 13]

johnmbowen makes a very good point. Most outfitters love to deal with scouts and will make various accomodations, including discounts. It is not necessary to own all the expensive gear to have a good high adventure program.

 

There are some things I personally would continue to "buy" such as whitewater rafting expertise. Nobody that I personally know in this area, self included, possesses that particular expertise, and if one is going to do rafting at all, one has to go with one of the numerous rafting companies that operate in California.

 

We do own our own ropes, harnesses, and climbing helmets, although the council is only now getting climbing training organized.

[k9gold-scout 10]

YAHOO!!! Look for high adventure at scout camps and be sure to check out Venture (ranger) camps. Sail the Oceans, climb a Mountain using ice axes, Raft in the Artic Circle, earn the 50 mi. afoot or afloat award. Just start here at the Net Compass and ask your scouts what they want to do.

[Mike Long 10]

Here's more food for thought.

 

Lots of folks seem to have big problems with paddle adventures for the boys. The big one being not having a qualified Lifeguard. If you are near a military base particularly Navy or Coast Guard. Call the base and find out if they have a unit of rescue divers. If they do, make an open invitation for them to attend your HA paddle trip. Obviously you will need to meet them and evaluate their personality to be sure they will be compatible with Scouting. Make the offer of a free trip and see if you can work with his/her CO about getting TAD (I think that's whatb they called it) orders. What that means is that the person is issued orders to attend your HA paddle trip. He gets paid to go and doesn't have to burn any leave time. But we did this on four occasions and each time we met great young men who were more than willing to help. Three of whom were Eagles.

[johnmbowen 10]

Mike Long has brought up a good topic that I really would like to address. These are the BSA requirements for Safety Afloat in general. One requirement is that a qualified BSA Lifeguard be on board on a rafting trip. Our Troop hads a competitive swimmer who ran through this to become a BSA Lifeguard to fulfill this reqirement, and here is the point...what good is he. BSA Lifeguard does not address swiftwater.

 

Of course I trained my guy (more than the others) in swift water safety, rescue etc geared toward river rescue, but if not trained in this specialty, he would be worse than useless! A boy trained in the BSA Life Guard would be prone to performing a rescue geared toward flat water in a very dangerous situation which would basically create two victims that the boatman would have to deal with.

 

The point is that the BSA requirements in this case not only don't make since, but can become a danger. While I think that it is a good idea to have these programs including Life Guard, Safety Afloat, Climb on Safety etc., it is wise to realize that they are there to impart what BSA would like to include...but they have, due to inexperience with practically any type of high adventure missed the mark as usual. I believe that the top executives will have to be educated concerning good intentions and poor design...any thoughts?

 

As to looking for expertise, it really depends on where you live. I would assume that in CA that there would be a large Private Boater's Association in the state. I would be glad to investigate. One physical method would be to ask around at a White Water Rafting store that sells rafts...find out who the privates are. Alternatively, do ask an outfitter about whitewater training. They might make up a special class for training in the SLOW season especially for you. I do know that some CA outfitters offer "guide training" meaning that you train along with their guides for the same price. This would be valuable training for starting your own program. (Remember start highly prepaired and go very conservatively...the kids will enjoy mild rivers if they are taught to do it themselves).

 

I guess that if someone local can't be found that I would be interested in helping to run a teaching whitewater course for Scouters if costs can be split.

 

I would also like to hear some opinions on liability, finding out if someone you have contacted can do what they say, and real safety instruction. I got my swiftwater rescue from Canyonlands Field Inst. via Barry Sadler (NPS Ranger).

Other outfits abound including Rescue 1.

[Bob White 20]

A point of clarification, A BSA or certified lifeguard is not a requirement of the Safety Afloat Plan it s just a recommendation.

 

"It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat." (excerpted from The Guide to Safe Scouting)

 

It has been the experience of the BSA that more members were injured by not following the safety regulations than by the lack of having a certified lifeguard.

 

Regulations must be followed to insure participant safety and to maintain the adult liability protection.

 

Recommendations are based on past experiences of other scout units and on the guidelines followed by amatuer and professional organizations who regularly participate or govern such activities.

Recommendations are offered to help insure units have a well planned and successful trip. Not following recommendations will not affect your liability protection.

 

I do agree that a higher level of lifesaving skill would be a logical safety precaution and I would certainly have someone on the crew trained in that skill if we were on such a trip.

 

Hope this helps to clarify things,

Bob White