Camp Game or Hazing?

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" When I was growing up I was taught to avoid offending people whenever possible, especially if they came from different circumstances and therefore might not understand my words to have their intended meaning."

 

I find it curious that we are always supposed to be the understanding ones. If a foreigner comes to America and does strange things, we are supposed to be understanding and forgiving because their ways are different. If an American goes to a strange land, he is expected to understand the strange customs of the land and abide by them.

 

If ya come here, ya gotta deal with our ways.

[FScouter 24]

I agree with NJCubScouter. "PC" has become trite. I hear it mostly used as a derisive comment about an opposing viewpoint.

 

[FScouter 24]

Well stated Mr. Eamonn (and NJCubScouter).

 

I'm waiting for any evidence to show how the teapot song supports any tenet of Scouting.

[Eamonn 61]

I know at times I allow my feels to get in the way of being Political Correct. I am not sure what the difference between a Hispanic and a Latino is. I have no idea what the difference between being black and being colored is.Most of this is ignorance on my part.

I have often wondered why in the USA we have Afro-Americans, but back home I have yet to meet an Afro-Anglo.

I do however respect all of these different peoples and I think that the diversity of the USA is one of its biggest strengths. I hope that some of the stuff that they bring to us and I include myself with them will never be lost. I love the smell and taste of a good curry. Spending a Sunday with a Portuguese family when one of their kids is making their first holy communion is a Sunday well spent. A Saturday morning in the Strip District of Pittsburgh with stores and foods from every corner of the world is hard on the wallet but Oh the taste. I worked my way through college working in a hardware store owned by a little Jewish fellow. A nicer man I never met.

I agree with the Gentleman from New Jersey and what he has posted.

PC may now be old hat, but respect will never go out of style.

Eamonn.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"I have often wondered why in the USA we have Afro-Americans"

 

Eamonn, get with the program! They are African-Americans this year.

 

There was a black commedian who commented that he wished that people would decide what he was. He's been Negro, colored, black, Afro-American and now African American.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Haze- frighten, tease, anger, insult, punish, fog.

 

Game- amusement, fun, play,

 

Just in case anybody got confused.

 

FB

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"frighten, tease, anger, insult, punish, fog(?)."

 

That describes soccer, football, basketball, baseball, Trivial pursuit, and bridge.

[Proud Eagle 13]

At our camp they do this. At evening flags the camp director asks "what time is it?" the staff replies "its suzie time" and then the suzie song is sung. Then everyone checks their pockets for suzie (a fake buddie tage colored with various florescent markers such as orange, pink, and green). If someone has suzie, they are asked to step forward. They then play some rather unusual game against a staff member of their choosing. Sometimes the camper will trade with another member of their troop. (games include drinking a glass of water while being held upside down by some other person, racing around the flap pole with a spoon stuck to your nose, racing with a ping pong ball in a spoon, crap walk race, or wheelbarrow race) If the staff member is winning other staff members will run into the assembly area and sabotage their efforts until the camper wins, in fact, we usually do this even if the camper is winning. The camper gets a free slushie, the staff member gets nothing.

 

Now there is one thing that may be hazing (but is more likely a just punishment) that is used as a punishement. If someone leaves a buddy tag in the swimming area, once they are discovered, they must wear a PFD during the next meal. Obviously the problem with a lost buddy tag in the swimming area is that it could trigger a camp wide lost bather drill, requiring the entire camp to assemble at flags and the life guards to search the bottum of the lake in order to account for the swimmer. This happened one time this year. Fortunately it was at almost the same time as the weekly practice drill, so it all worked out. Several other individuals left tags, but they were immediately located in their scheduled merit badge class, so no sirens were sounded, no camp wide assembly was required, and the life guards were spaired the ordeal of diving to the bottom of the lake repeatedly.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

FOG,

 

Haze-fog not FOG, just for a laugh.

 

You are right haze does describe those sports that are played competitively. It describes the all- out play that intends to hurt a team or an individual anyway that they can simply to win. It is play that takes the rules to the edge of fair play and remains during the entire time allotted. Underneath the thin surface of gaming, it has none of the elements found in a game. Therefore, it is not really a game but something designed to inflict hurt or injury to reduce the competition to a level that the objective of winning can be obtained. Winning by any means is closer to a war than a game in intent or motive.

 

FB

 

[Unhappy Camper 10]

I once worked for a very large and famous bank.

 

The bank required every employee who was promoted above a certain grade to take a class in public speaking.

 

Not only did each new manager have to speak in front of the entire class, the instructor also videotaped the performance and then played the tape back while criticizing the student's presentation skills in front of everyone.

 

Was it humiliating? Damn straight it was humiliating!

 

Did any employee willingly take the class? No way! Everyone I knew delayed taking the class as long as possible, until Human Resources refused to grant them any more deferments.

 

Should Boy Scout camps be run like large corporate bureaucracies? I have no idea. Should scouting prepare boys for real life, or teach them ideals they may not find apply in the real world? Again, I do not have a clue.

[EagleScout316 10]

Well, it's easy to say that it's hazing; however, is there a situation where no one will end up with Suzzie? For instance, is it a chance that everyone will know everyone, and not have to face a consequence?

 

Ya know, even at Philmont Scout Camp, there were things that could be considered hazing. If we had stepped on a certain patch of grass at Cimaroncito Camp while playing ultimate frisbee, we would have to sing a song (of our choice) at the top of our lungs on the porch of the staff cabin. Back down at base camp, if you wanted seconds, you'd have to sing a song picked by the cooks. I did the worst rendition of "Oh I wish I was an oscar meyer weiner" in the world for seconds, thirds, and fourths, but I didn't care, even when my own troop let me know that I had a terrible singing voice; I was hungry.

-ES 3:16

[scoutldr 732]

Well, if they allow it at Philmont, it must not be hazing. There's no hazing in Boy Scouts!

[Torveaux 10]

I think some people need to grow up.

 

If you consider any sort of embarrassment or discomfort to be hazing, then you have never experienced it.

 

I view this line of thinking in a similar manner to those who call others 'Nazis' for trivial reasons.

 

I know a former scout who was hazed. It consisted of being tied up in a basement and having most of his clothes removed and being ridiculed and taunted by other scouts. He is now one of the finest men I know, but he left scouts right away. Scouting did not haze him, scouts did.

 

The silly games and singing in public is not remotely hazing. It challenges our boys to find courage (a Scout is brave, right?) in a safe environment.

 

As for punishing the group for the failures of a member, how about this example. If a ship captain makes a mistake that dooms the ship, do they not all get wet? If a member of a sports team makes a mistake that causes him to lose, does not the whole team lose? Sometimes these mistakes are choices. Other times they are simply the cruel twists of fate. When we try too hard to protect our children from embarassment or failure we do them a serious disservice.

 

Keep things in proportion and build better men.

[Eamonn 61]

Torveaux,

You posted:

If you consider any sort of embarrassment or discomfort to be hazing, then you have never experienced it.

I really hope that I'm not reading what you said right.

I 100% believe that when someone goes out of their way to cause embarrassment or discomfort to someone else it is hazing. Which is not part of Scouting.

Before joining the Troop that I spent most of my Scouting career in. I was a member of a Troop that had a very nasty initiation "Ceremony". Lads on the ground tied to tent pegs, with jam and food smeared all over them. Mostly in their underwear, but at times things got out of hand and the poor Lad was naked. Of course no one ever instructed these bullies to do this, but at that time no one told anyone not too.

The really sad thing is that this ceremony didn't happen very often, in fact I know of it only happening four or five times. As with a lot of things in Scouting the story took on a life of it's own and grew and grew. Soon the young Lads from the pack refused to go to camp, some wouldn't even join the troop. I was very fortunate to have a brother who was four years older than myself in the troop, so I was never "Staked Out". When I became a Leader I vowed that this sort of thing would never happen in my troop.

A couple of years back I went up to our Summer Camp, OJ was in camp with his troop. It wasn't a parents night but I for some reason was up there. I went to the site where OJ camping and found a little Lad tied up and being carried to the shower house. I immediately made them untie the Lad and let him go. I went to the ASM in charge (The SM had to return home his wife was having chemo-therapy). He explained that the Lad hadn't taken a shower all week and the other boys were "Helping him!!" I knew the Lad who had been tied up, he had been a Tiger Cub the year I left the pack. When I asked him about it? He said that he was fine and was enjoying it!! However when I explained the harm that this could do to the troop, if other Cub Scouts found out that the "Big Kids" were tying little Lads up, both him and the ASM seen my point. I really hope so this Lad is a Patrol Leader in our Jamboree Troop.

Scouting can offer so many opportunities for real fun and real adventure we don't need this type of stuff.

Eamonn.

[Bolo 10]

Does anyone remember the quote attributed to John Wayne?

"....my Dad always taught me to be polite and not to deliberately offend anyone....so, if I offend you, you can be darn sure I'm doing it deliberately."

...or something to that effect.