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Tour Permits

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Sorry, I did not pick up until now that this thread was resumed again..


Lots, going on.. rraffalo - you definately did not pick up on the earlier statements that the CO owns the units under them with the COR being their represenative, although stated in many ways throughout this thread.


SAME CO/COR!!!! - You get this idea (which I admit was a good thought) BUT SAME CO/COR!!!! So you thought to just have the CC of the crew sign it, on a opinion by you the COR really didn't agree with the CC of the troop.. If you really believed that you then you should have asked him if this was an agreeable work around. NOT snuck it past him.. The only reason you snuck it past him, was you feared his response, would not be what you wanted to hear.


I hope that poor Crew CC knew of the squabbles going on and that it was not only the CC but the COR's position before they signed that tour permit.. If so they deserve the "new one" the COR ripped for them.. If not, your not being up front with them put them in a lot of hot water.



Once the COR is involved you do not try to sneak anything past them, within any of the units that is under their authority.. If you had read him right, then he may have considered the approach workable. If you did not, you would have had the answer, without getting him so upset that he removed you from the trip.. But, to try to sneak it past him by getting a signature by someone below his authority, you just slapped him across the face and I am not surprised that his reaction was what it was.. He was forced to react in the manner he did, or loose his authority over the units, and be stepped on and ignored from that day forward.


Trying to come up with an equal scenerio, outside of scouting.. That would be like at work, coming up with a solution and proposing it for the accounting department and having the President of the company flat out say "NO", so going to the IT department, and have them carry it out.. If the IT manager follows through, the President of the company will not only come down on you, but on the manager of the IT department. You both might get fired.. If the IT manager was not made aware of the Company Presidents views on the subject, it would be your fault for getting him canned..


Sorry for you being forcibly removed, now lets see what happens with the replacement. This is short notice and alot of expense, you already know that no other parents with other children on this trip want to (or are able to) take your place.. So they are either looking for an adult wanting to go with their child not involved in the trip.. Or a parent/child team.. Unless you are right and they have someone waiting in the wings, at this late date that will practically impossible to find.. If similar cost of our SeaBase trip then Seabase+Airfare+room/board before getting on the ship was about $2,000 per person. It's a tall order even if they open it to looking for a group within the district or council.. The time is not on their side, many units wind down for summer.. Most people have their summer plans formated and lined up..


What will your unit/CO do if they can't find the replacement? They have now made such a show of it, they will not back down to allow you to go if they can not find the replacement.


Whose fault is it? Half of this large show they put on was because you would not let up and behave right.. You blame them for not seeing things your way, because you are right and they are wrong. They have the exact same attitude.. As you escalated, they were forced to also.


If the crew was of a different CO, that might have been a solution.. When I read your solution I thought maybe that is why you eluded earlier to haveing two CO's troop & Crew of different CO's.. But, doing what you did under the same CO...? WOW! You do have alot of balls...


No, I can not see Richard B. taking on this, with the mess you have made of it.. I would be surprised if the program director calls you back, they have a tendancy to dis-associate from serious problems.. Number one for them is keeping their units, and they will not do anything that may cause a CO to discontinue running 2? 3 (if theres a pack) units.. They were probably threatened with this by your actions, and the part they played in it.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

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I gave the Crew's Committee Chairman all the details, and printed copies of emails between the CC/ COR and I. I also copied National's Policy, I shared emails from Council with him that approved our DRAFT Tour Plan, and I explained the exact position of the Troop's CC and his COR (for the Troop and Crew).


He agreed with me stating that their current ruling would set a dangerous precedent for our summer camp travels, which often includes only one adult in each of three or four vehicles.


Another thing is that I have not given this Board privy to the emails that my CC has sent me... very sarcastic and demeaning (stupid is as stupid does, kind of stuff)


The Crew's CC agreed with our side of it whole-heartedly and signed the Tour Plan the very next day.


Thank you for the compliment about having "big balls" moosetracker, but this isn't life or death or even a career position, so I really don't wish to tolerate being dictated to for no good reason, just because our CC gets a wild hair to make up rules on the fly. There are really no severe consequences here.


My son and I will be just fine not going ~ He's a Life Scout and will be 14 in July, we'll have plenty of other trips to go on. And, while it would have been much easier to come to that conclusion a month ago the CC kept jabbing me and taunting me to "live up to my commitment" which would have meant doing what he said to do, just because he said to do it, and shelling out another $600 to fly back to Illinois and join the others.


I've been of this mind all along, realizing full well that he could remove me from the trip. In fact, I told him three weeks ago to remove me from the trip and he refused because he thought it would make him look like the bad guy. So, he wanted me to follow his nonsense rules, and shell out $600 additional dollars so that he would not lose face with the others by ejecting me as a leader and potentially having to cancel the trip.


Had I known his "higher standard" when I agreed to be a leader of this trip, and had our past travel protocol made me think this might have been a problem, then I would not have signed up. But, I learned of this after other family arrangements had already been solidified.


I did ask the CC what he would do if he could not find my replacement and he did not answer that, but he told my former co-leader that he would have a person of her today. So, I must believe he has an outlet somewhere. He moved forward with my dismissal anyway, so the problem is all his now.


5yearscouter: Sorry about the hurt feelings; didn't mean to hit a nerve, but if you are going to quote language from a policy then read and post all of it. Don't just post the portion that serves your side of the argument. That is what my CC has been doing for the past 2-3 weeks.


Also, you've dished it out pretty hard yourself and I haven't gotten all weepy over your criticism. If you are going to hang around a Board then you should expect to be challenged from time to time.


So, everyone can dispense with all the drama, because this really is not an act of desperation for us. As much as I would like to lead the trip it has been fun watching our CC get all lathered up. The venom and the spit flying in his emails to me have really made him look like a mad man, very dictatorial, and pompous ~ being he knows better than Council and National such that we need a "higher standard" ... as if he knows better than an organization (BSA) that has been around for more than 100 years. If he has had time to sit around and give better thought to all of this than the BSA itself, then he simply does not have enough to do.


But no... I haven't jeopardized anything, or squandered anything, or cut off my nose to spite me face. I haven''t gotten the Crew's CC canned, and I don't particularly thing my actions gives me "Big Buckeyes". This is Boy Scouts... this is a Troop . I haven't committed treason or felony, and I'm not going to get Court Marshaled. I've simply fought for my belief in this situation and lost.


Life will go on !


He looks completely foolish to anyone in our Troop that I share the details with

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>>"Life will go on ! He looks completely foolish to anyone in our Troop that I share the details with"

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In all of the text lashing this useful question went unanswered ...

How frequently does a Troop set a higher standard than the BSA?


Well, I'm no statistician (at least not on my day off), but I figure it's fairly frequent.


For example, the first time our Troop/Crew went to Seabase, we required the adults to have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (or whatever they called it 5 years ago) and Venturing Leader Specific Training. That's way above BSA's reqs.


I tried to require VLST for the upcoming trip, but our council botched the schedule. (The next course is two weekends after our return!) I talked it over with other with other more experienced advisors who my CC would trust before letting that standard go.

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Yeah, qwazse - As stated before, our COR requires us to do the tour permit (now tour plan) for every outing even as BSA use to not require it if in the town your unit was in, and has now backed off to unless out of council, or a specific type of activity..


For our seabase those who were going had several manditory events to work up their swimming endorouse.


For training we have got that Adults can't go on events unless certain training is complete.

before allowed on any event (YPT, fast start, This is scouting) This was before national made YPT manditory.

Then you have 1 year to complete the SM/ASM Specific & IOLS or will not be allowed on event again until it is complete..

These training requirements are for ANYONE wanting to go on events, including committee members & parents.


On the forum, we have heard :

CO's that will not allow a female adult to be SM or ASM..

CO's that state you must be a member of their faith.

CO's or units of packs that have every den meet on the same night in the same place..


I am sure I am forgetting quite a few.




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ScoutNut may be a little paranoid, but I've found his observations of the Byzantine workings of this organization are not too far off. One word of caution, never confuse a sympathetic ear for an alliance ...


He looks completely foolish to anyone in our Troop that I share the details with ...


I have heard phrases like this before, from someone who thought they'd be in this organization forever, about someone who he thought would be doomed to wreck a unit. The former is no longer an official leader, while the latter is fostering a booming troop.


Just sayin' the path you describe is well-trodden ...

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Thanks qwazse... great words of wisdom right there. I think you are right.


To everyone else... thanks for a fun day of kicking all this around.


ScoutNut and 5yearscouter ~ I truly do appreciate your candid perspective, even though I bite back some times. No offense meant... Heck, I don't even know y'all so it's definitely not personal.


Have a great evening to everyone that has contributed to this thread over the past week or so.


Much Appreciated!

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