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Thanks qwazse... great words of wisdom right there. I think you are right. To everyone else... thanks for a fun day of kicking all this around. ScoutNut and 5yearscouter ~ I truly do appreciate your candid perspective, even though I bite back some times. No offense meant... Heck, I don't even know y'all so it's definitely not personal. Have a great evening to everyone that has contributed to this thread over the past week or so. Much Appreciated!

ScoutNut: You are Nutty... that's for sure. :-)

I gave the Crew's Committee Chairman all the details, and printed copies of emails between the CC/ COR and I. I also copied National's Policy, I shared emails from Council with him that approved our DRAFT Tour Plan, and I explained the exact position of the Troop's CC and his COR (for the Troop and Crew). He agreed with me stating that their current ruling would set a dangerous precedent for our summer camp travels, which often includes only one adult in each of three or four vehicles. Another thing is that I have not given this Board privy to the emails that my CC has sent me...

FScouter: That's a pretty infantile interpretation of the policy. I feel like you are saying, nah-nah, na na na ! You actually sound as irrational as our CC: Are you sure you're not him? 5yearscouter: If I gave you another 5 years would you promise to read the remainder of the Two-Deep leadership policy with respect to Travel and Outings? Specifically the part that says: "you need to have a minimum of one adult in each vehicle..." Gentlemen: READ, BE RATIONAL, and BE REASONABLE in the spirit of service as Beavah has been promoting.

5yearscouter: Yes, the COR is the same... qwazse: I haven't squandered anything... The CC has said, "No" to our plans from the beginning and stated his reason as being it was National's policy to have two-deep leadership (from end to end). I asked him to reconsider because that is not National's policy. I asked them to reread the policy and to please reconsider. He continued to refuse to sign the Tour Plan, saying, "it's not my rule, the Troop's rule, or Council's rule ~ it's an National BSA policy. Because of the good advice from this Board I knew he could create a higher standard

I choose to look at it more like when brother says, "no" ask Dad. BUT, the latest is our CC and COR went to Council today, threw a fit and Council revoked our Tour Plan with the Crew. Subsequently, I've been removed as the co-leader of the trip effective immediately and "Game Over". They are now searching for another leader, which I believe they must already have a commitment from someone. Here's the kicker... they will give me my money back because they are kicking me out, but they told me if they cannot find another Scout to replace my son they will not return his trip fee.

FScouter: "Skirt the Intent of rules and policies" Remember FScouter: We are in line with the rules and policies. In fact, we meet the rules and policies or we would not have the support of Council. If I felt we were "cutting corners" or trying to take an angle that is in the "gray area" I would not have pursued this. It is better to teach boys not to allow themselves to be oppressed by a person or agency that is mis-using its power, than to teach them to wander along aimlessly as their leaders dictate, particularly without reasons that make sense to them. I'm teaching my yo

Well... my co-leader actually thought of the idea, and it sounded worth pursuing to me. As I said, the Crew's Committee Chairperson saw the issue clearly and signed the Tour Plan. My son and my co-leaders two sons are signed up as Venturers, but not all going on the trip have to be. So, we figured to keep it simple we would not require the others to join the Crew, including the CC's son. We have no desire to give them more paperwork to do, and so we are perfectly fine with them attending as Scouts. If they enjoy the trip perhaps they'll wish to join the Venture Crew on their own.

Here's the updated status: The CC and COR were too committed to their original decision to reconsider. So, my co-leader and I changed the Tour Plan to be a Crew instead of a Troop, and sent it to the Committee Chairman for the Venture Crew, which is closely affiliated with our Troop. After explaining all the details to him and providing him with a detailed travel itinerary he signed it, no problem! We scanned it and emailed it to Council; they stamped and approved it in less than 24 hours. So, now we have a green light to proceed and everyone WINS. Our Troop's Committee C

KC9DDI: Thanks for the practice... I'll use the insights, for sure. Look back at the post, I've never taken a position of legal mumbo jumbo. I've never spoken of suing or courts or anything, although I do know some of the others on the Board explored that avenue. I'm not a litigious person. Since I know this Board cannot help me. None of you have the authority to fix this I have no reason to spend all this time posting if I'm going to slant the truth. It's best for me to give you all the specifics, so that you can give me good advice, which I have received tons of. Posting

Thank you 5yearscouter: No, my co-leader is fine with all this, and the parents of the other two scouts are fine with this. Interestingly, the CC's son is on this trip with us, and the CC has not stated he is uncomfortable with it. In fact, I know he trusts my co-leader. He simply does not want to sign the Tour Plan. Here is the contingencies we've laid out thus far, and you've given me some additional ideas that I'm going to add to our Preparedness and our Planning. In fact, I will offer the COR that I will conduct a sit down meeting to review all that and I will equip each of u

Ok 5 yearscouter: the first half of your post is moot, because we have plans to get the scouts to the gate with two deep leadership, through security and all. If something happens to the leader on the plan. The scouts go with that leader wherever they go with whatever medical service is treating the leader. Just as in a car with one leader. If something happens to the leader they remain with the leader (and any official aiding the leader in his/ her state of incapacity) until the other leaders arrive... just as in the car situation you pointed out. Except on the plane the scouts wou

KC9DDI: Delayed flights, diverted flights - I've already addressed our mitigation plans. While I cannot make a guarantee, no one can. What if I get delayed or my flight gets canceled, returning to Illinois to get on the plane with the others? If I don't make it there are they going to not get on the plane and fly to Florida without me, expecting that I will meet up with them as soon as I can redirect and get with them? In that case I would think they would just wait for me in the Florida airport. Would you expect them to STOP, miss their flight, and wait for me, so that we can all find a

Thank you KC9DDI... good stuff! I am being honest when I believe the air travel is safer than car travel, particularly because we will have two deep leadership at the gates on each end of the flight. I'm a Committee Member... we do not have higher standards. This is a one off, shoot from the hip mistake that he made. He went off in an email telling me how irresponsible I was for not knowing National's policy. He said, "It's not my policy, it's not the Troop's policy, it's not the Council's policy, it's the BSA National policy and we cannot change that!!!!!" Yes, with all the emo

Well... I just printed all the emails that 5yearscouter suggested in a few posts back and they are all as sweet as the one I embedded in my last post. So, you can keep the Baloney on that. Also, we have not yet purchased our airline tickets... the additional money I have been speaking of is the difference between in air fare between flying directly to FL and having to plan a multi-city trip through Chicago. My son is the one that prefers to have me on the trip, being that he is just turning 14; two other scouts are 15, and 3 are 16. Doesn't seem like a big age difference to you and I,

Moose Tracker and TwoCubDad: I put a post out there this morning at 6:45 am... Not expecting you to have noticed it. No one should have to go back and read all this. It said, "Sorry, third paragraph above should say: "Our CC's son is going on the trip with us..." (Not the CC himself) No, they have not found replacements yet. I appreciate the advice, even the objective and somewhat harsh commentary... I'm a big boy and it's all good! Hopefully you've all read the post of mine that stated this is where I have been venting, but more professional with the troop leaders (partic

5yearscouter: When you said, "Stop where you are right now!!" Two things jump into my head: 1. You are pleading with me not to scorch the Earth because it would be bad for our Troop and scouting overall. 2. You have thought of a better way to handle this "THAT WILL GET THIS DONE MY WAY" with a high degree of probability for success! Please rate, on a scale from 1-10 your meaning behind telling me to "stop where you are right now" (maybe it is neither, maybe you are just a police officer :-) Rating for: "Please don't scorch the Earth Stupid:" AND R

Thank you for the advice everyone... all of you have been so helpful! BTW, I have been very calm with them, continuing to ask for their support and trying to see how their decision in this case makes sense. Instead of telling me that they have a problem with me (that until now I would not have known of), and are just simply trying to get me to do it there way... just for fun! Instead, of that they lie about the way we have run the troop. I have been very relaxed with them and my emails to them support that... I may cut and paste them in here in a later post so that you can see the

Yes... I get it. Thank you, and I would not want National to fight our battles. They have too many other things to worry about. Bottom line: The COR can do what he wishes, and in this case he is mis-using his power even though he is not breaking any rules. Now, once he does this to me he will have to live with this in future decisions he makes. That means, two leaders in every car that is going to summer camp. While not requiring it would not be breaking the rules he is certainly showing this is personal. I don't think our membership will tolerate this... Are you saying th

Moose Tracker: Very thorough and helpful. I only need the signature of the CC or COR. If the CC is replaced and I were to become the CC can the COR stop me from signing it? I don't think he would get involved at that point. If he does I would move to get the Committee to remove them as the Charter Org and move to the other Charter Organization that we have on the sideline. In the end, I'm willing to miss this trip with my son if they keep pushing, so I'm far from in a coffin in the ground. But, I'm going to push them to go so far as to have to remove me. If they do that and je

Sorry, third paragraph above should say: "Our CC's son is going on the trip with us..."

ScoutNut (and all): You are not confused. I've been busy! I've taken the advice of this board, called our tour plan person at Council and spoke with her. I then emailed her a draft of our detailed itinerary and explained the leadership situation with only one adult on board the aircraft. She not only told me that was ok, but then emailed me back the same day saying that the detail of our itinerary looked great! She appreciated how thorough we were. I called the other Council and just spoke in generalities and quickly laid out the leadership issue on the plane, so as not to waste

I'm back gang, and I have updates... boy (and girl - moosetracker anyway) has the plot thickened! First off though... 5yearscouter: "it's still a good idea from a safety point of view to have a 2nd adult on all legs of the trip.' I agree it would be a good idea. If I were going to be at our home base the day just prior to our trip that is what would be happening. I would never fly out of town right before a trip just to mess with people and go through all this work for nothing. Of course it is a good idea, but it is not an option if I must be that person. I've offered forward

... And, an additional $181 for my son, and then we have to do the same on the return trip because we ultimately need to get back to CT to drive back to Illinois with my wife and other two children. I could let my son remain in Chicago with friends on the return trip, so he would not have to fly back to CT, just to drive Illinois but at a minimum it's $500 additional dollars.

Thank you Moose Tracker: I'm driving to CT with my wife, daughter and two sons from Chicago on July 8. The first week we will be visiting family and friends and the reunion is the following weekend. The plan was then to leave for Sea Base with my oldest son, while the others in my family remain in CT continuing their visit/ summer vacation. When my son and I return from Sea Base we are all driving back to Illinois the following day. I'm not going to ask my wife to drive my other two children back to the Chicago area on her own. So, the additional airfare comes in making a multi-city