AntelopeDud 10 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I understand, believe in and practice the principles of LNT when camping, but can someone explain to me why it is neccessary in some wilderness areas to pack up and carry your human waste with you? What is it about our poop that makes it so much worse than that of the other animals, that it needs to be carried out? Sounds like a bunch of "poop" to me, but maybe I'm missing something. -AD Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Note to all. AntelopeDud is one of my cohorts in crime in our unit. He is good people, please treat him as such. Second note to all. AntelopeDud is just upset because we threatened to name him the crew poop packer for this summer's high adventure trip. He thinks he already handles enough crap as CC. Link to post Share on other sites
GernBlansten 10 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 I guess it would depend on the environment. Some environments can't deal with cat-holes well (i.e. thin topsoil layer, conditions that inhibit the breakdown like permanent snow or desert conditions). In other environments, the shear number of human visitors would saturate an area. Read about the current conditions at base camp of Denali/Everest for examples. It rivals the sewage conditions of third world nations. As far as our poop vs. animal poop...we are just visitors to their home. It is rude to spread our poop around our host's house. Just remember how you feel when that stray dog comes and leaves a present on your lawn. In reality though, there are very few instances where you have to pack out your poop. In those cases, there are efficient and sanitary methods to handle it. Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Having not long ago taken the LNT Instructors Course, I feel like some sort of a poop expert. In fact some people might say I'm full of it!! You might do well to visit the LNT site http://www.lnt.org/programs/lnt7/dispose.html They have a page devoted to Dispose of Waste Properly. Now knowing that you have to work with SR540Beaver, please know you have my sympathies and I suggest a good pair of waders. ( Sorry Beave -It was too easy!!) Ea. Link to post Share on other sites
AntelopeDud 10 Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 SR540BEAV, is like my Scouting big brother, always looking out for me, always making me take his crap, always getting me into trouble with the SM. Seriously, he's a great Scouter and a wonderful mentor. I just hate to take extra weight with me if at all possible, and do we really think that animals care that we poop in their front yards. We can all do more to protect our environment, but some things just seem to go a little overboard. Just looking for that other point of view. SR540BEAV has this pocket on the outside of his backpack and he will never know when I leave him a little extra brotherly love. -AD (This message has been edited by AntelopeDud) Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 In Denali you get to use cat holes to bury your waste, but they expect you to pack out used toliet tissue and sanitary products. Not sure how the rangers pick who has that duty to inspect the hikers, but I am sure its not the plumb assignemnt. If the trend were to continue and we had to pack out EVERYTHING we packed in I could see a new POR in the Troop to assure all sanitary conditions are met, Here are some of the titles I came up with: The Emperor of Excrement The Duke of Dung The Friend of Feces The Steward of Stool The Sultan of Sewage The Prince of Poop Troop Turdmeister The Sire of Scat Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 And secondly, you must be a pirate for the Pirate's Code to apply, and you're not. And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.... Link to post Share on other sites
packsaddle 753 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Hi, I could believe pretty much anything you said about 'Beav, as long as it was nice. I would like to note one slight misconception, though. 'Poop', as those of us who are not into scatology sometimes call it, weighs no more in a plastic bag than it did in its previous residence. You were carrying it before as well, just in a different container. So I don't buy the 'weighs too much' argument. And sort of on topic, I knew a guy who had a potential solution to this. We were on a 5-day canoe trip on the Okefenokee and we had a very crude portapotty, a chair frame with a plastic bucket under it lined with a bag. No privacy. He dosed himself and cleaned himself out with laxatives prior to the trip and then held it the whole time. What a guy! I really didn't want to see that big pudgy backside anyway...remember, America has a growing crack problem! Edited part: mispelling, sorry(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Link to post Share on other sites
Crew21_Adv 25 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 AD, Greetings! Gee..this is getting deep. I never thought I'd be Posting on a topic like this. But Hey, I've had a 30 mile hike and a 50 miler (which was actually 56 miles). Four of the days were in the wilderness with a latrine (or KYBO) at the beginning of the week, and the most beautiful looking latrine at the end of the hike. Quiet often we refer to the Handbook in this forum, even on this ocassion the LNT was quoted, but we rarely refer to the Fieldbook. Gern seemed to hit the nail on the head with his comment. Sorta like, would you care to answer nature's call in your front yard? I don't have the BSA Fieldbook infront of me right now, but this is from the LNT chapter in the BSA Fieldbook Companion website. http://www.bsafieldbook.org/fieldbook.jsp?s=LNT&c=07 http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/21-117/053c_dispose.html AD asked, why it is neccessary in some wilderness areas to pack up and carry your human waste with you? It seems like the answer to why, would be based on state and county laws. "Some areas may require that all feces and toilet paper be packed out. Always check with the land management agency if there is a question" If I am correct, The BSA only requires a Scout hiker to abide by all state and local laws. It states that in most all of our literature. I have not read where BSA tell us to "pack it out", but only to abide by the lawful ordinance. Recalling from the Fieldbook, I believe a chapter in the updated handbook even makes a reference to what bears do in the woods. (If someone has their Fieldbook infront of them, could you help me out) So if animals hear nature calling, why can't Scouts? And then AD asked, What is it about our poop that makes it so much worse than that of the other animals, that it needs to be carried out? Here's the answer.... Human Waste. Proper human waste disposal helps prevent the spread of disease and exposure to others. So, for those wilderness areas, where there is not a law or ordinance mandating that hikers "pack it out", here is what the BSA Fieldbook says, "Catholes 6 to 8 inches deep in humus and 200 feet from water, trails, and campsites are often the easiest and most practical way to dispose of feces." Now.. I hope we can bury this topic... lol Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv Link to post Share on other sites
CNYScouter 46 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 For those who really want to get to the "bottom of this topic" pick up the book "How to S**t in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art" by Kathleen Meyer. Someone bought this for me as a joke, knowing I was a Scout Leader, and it has way more information that I ever wanted to know about the subject, but is really informative. According to this book there is no where left on the North American Continent, including above the Artic Circle, where you can drink water from a natual source without filtering. One of the reasons that in some area you have to "pack it out" is because of Giardia contamination and Cryptosporidium. These bacterias can live at near freezing temperatures. Even though all animal waste contain these bacterias the strain found in human waste will make other humans sick. Link to post Share on other sites
AntelopeDud 10 Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 WOW! What a great group of Scouters. Your knowledge of fecal matter is very impressive, as is your sense of humor. I have laughed, been informed of bacteria and had my stomach turn all on one topic. Well done Scouters! -AD, the newly appointed Duke of Dung (I really liked that one OGE) Link to post Share on other sites
anarchist 10 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 AntelopeDud, First Kathleen Meyers book is worth the dollars or at least a trip to the library...some of it will be having you busting a gut...in a nice way, of course... As to why we should all be thinking "carry it out", besides it being the law in many parks and some states/counties, with many of the wilderness areas we visit we are not blazing 'new trails'... We are following hundreds sometimes thousands of visitors along the same ridges, passes or rivers each year. From experience I can tell you that thirty five years ago on certain river trips I could camp on any island or beach in pristine confort with an occaisional "trot" up the hillside for the relief of a cat hole...now unfortunately, with all the canoes on the rivers each summer(lower 49), most of the better "public land" non developed campsites are festooned with little piles high-lighted by small "flags" of toilet (app) paper...and some islands are now... shall we say aromatically challenged. Nothing finer than sitting on a river island sipping coffee as the sun goes down and having the wind change blowing the smell of the last campers poor hid "deposit" your way... With all of the use most areas now get we simply have to make a major effort to reduce our impact so other who follow us (even if that's next week)can enjoy the same clean experience. Now an advertisement...(I have no interest in this product but for canoe camps it is great our troop has been using it for years). It is called a PETT toilet and is made of high impact plastic, has three legs, and it folds to the size of a old smith carona portable type writer (or very large lap top computer for you kids out there). It uses a Wag bag system that not only is "zippable" (like a zip lock) but it has a treatment chemical inside that starts working on all that "wonderful product of too much spaghetti and coffee" immeditely and results in a bag of poop that is LEGALLY- EPA approved for land fill disposal...(just using a plastic bag in a bucket and dropping the bag in a dumpster/trash can or landfill is illegal in most jurisdictions). While the "throne" (which is very comfortable and stable) is not likely to be usable for hikeing the bags can be used with out the "throne". Ms Meyers book has other suggestions also... and yes I seem to get more than my share of poop duty...I'll take a lot of #%@* to get on the river for a while.... ANARCHIST Link to post Share on other sites
Beavah 205 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Yeh don't say where you're goin', AntelopeDude. Most common place to find a "pack your poop" regulation is whitewater river corridors. When yeh get 30-100,000 people goin' down one stretch of river during a season of 3-4 months, that's a pretty big bucket of manure to be dumpin' on the small spits of land along the shores. Second most common I think is on big wall climbs in popular places. Packin' your poop sure beats droppin' a brown "rock" on someone below, or leavin' it on the the only tiny bivouac ledge on the way up. Canoe or sea kayak trips where the campgrounds are small islands but they get a lot of use are also places yeh see it. Just way too much poo for the local environment. It'd get pretty gross, and then people wouldn't camp there and would start mowin' down pristine areas nearby to camp. Human poop is a fairly attractive foodstuff to critters; lots of fat in it. Ever seen a dog eat poop? Just like that. In places where there aren't a lot of soil microbes to break things down quickly, or where other foods are scarce, the local critters dig up human dung. That makes a real mess. Another reason is that most diseases don't jump species. We humans aren't likely to get sick from critter poop, especially wild critters. But human poop brings all kinds of human germs. And for some reason, humans, even scouts, have this habit of takin' dumps in or near water. Curse of the modern toilet. Sometimes land management agencies write rules for the least common denominator, not the well-educated LNTer. We Americans get all afraid of poo, but packin' it out really isn't a big deal. Da bag fits right in the end of SR540's sleepin' bag stuff sack . Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Since the bag of doody is obviously a "smellable" that attracts critters, does it go up in the bear bag with the food stuffs or in its own bag? I'd prefer not to confuse it with the oatmeal in the morning. BTW, the Beav has to use a long sleeping bag, so there is no room in the stuff sack. The Antelope is shorter.....should be plenty of room in his. Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 OK, in the key of "D" Duke Duke Duke Duke Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, As I walk thorugh this world nobody will touch me Because I am the Duke of Dung And when you are with me, you will be my Czarina of crap And no one will harm us because I am the Duke of Dung! Duke Duke Duke Duke Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, Duke of Dung, Dung, Dung, Link to post Share on other sites
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