Robinton Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 At our last Troop meeting we had our elections for Troop Officers. After the election, I (the Scoutmaster) learned that our newly elected Senior Patrol Leader gave each Scout a bag of candy to vote for him. Aside from the candy is forbidden at meetings unless provided by the Troop, I have a problem with "Buying" votes. One of my Assistant Scoutmasters thinks it's not a big deal which prompted this message. As I have been a Scoutmaster for only 4 years I would appreciate any sage advice or opinions you may have. I did speak to 2 boys and they said they voted for him because of the candy. YES! At the next meeting we will be discussing each person's need to take his vote .... My question at this point is should the election stand? Should the vote be taken over and if so, should the offending Scout be allowed to remain in the election? He has been in the Troop for four years and is aware candy is not allowed and when asked if the candy for votes was the right thing to do, he acted only remorsefull that he was caught, not that the act was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Not to seem too jaded, but it is refreshing to see a scout candidate care enough about the position to bribe other scouts to vote for him! You are, as the saying goes, between a rock and a hard place. If you let this election stand, you send a very bad message to all the scouts. If you seek to overturn the election, you could have a different kind of uproar. As I see it, you as scoutmaster have the authority to overturn the election. This is not unlike some of the recent threads about elected positions, only it is worse. In this case dishonesty is involved. Having said that, I would not make this a unilateral action. I would reach out to the committee chair and as many members of the committee as I could reach on the telephone. You have the acknowledged facts on your side. You should be prepared to see this lad drop out of your troop, and possibly out of scouting altogether. There may be an adverse reaction from the parents. I don't know enough of the details, and I guess I don't need to know the details. I would not allow this thing to pass. If one cannot have an honest election in a boy scout troop, then we are in bigger trouble than we all realize. There is an opportunity here to teach important lessons if it is handled right. I don't think I would pursue further punishments with this scout if he apologizes to the troop for his actions. The embarrassment is punishment enough in this case. One of the lessons is letting the punishment fit the crime. The other lessons are basic adherence to the scout law, following troop policies, etc. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcquillan Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 OK, here's the opposite point of view, and the reasons why. You're doing the troop, and this scout, no favors by letting the election stand. What message are you providing to the scouts? While I will agree with "eisely" that it is always refreshing to see a scout really value something about his participation, this is not the time or place to let that thinking lead the way. The election should be nullified, and you, as the Scoutmaster, should do it publicly before the troop, and explain why to the boys. You should explain to them that the buying of voted violates many of the tenents of Scouting expressed in both the Scout Oath and Law, even using examples if you can. Trustworthy? How can this action be considered thus? On my honor? Do my best? There are many ways you can take those two precious items (Oath and Law) and use them to explain to the boys why the election can not stand. You don't want them to take this election as an example of how to get what they want in life, do you? They remember things like this, even if we, as adults, try to rationalize them and see them as relatively harmless actions by boys. There's a lesson to be learned here, and that's what we're (Scouters) in business for. I would suggest that you nullify the election before the troop, and perhaps have interested parents there. I would suggest that you have the troop hold another election, but disqualify this boy from running for the position for this term, and this term only. I would suggest that the lesson learned here by all, not just the guilty party, is one that will be long lasting, and far more positive in the long run than allowing this situation to stand. It is wise to inform the troop committee beforehand, and explain your reasoning. But I think the call is yours, not that of the committee. If they value the program at all, they will understand why this must be done. Although, in my tenure as SM, I never had to overturn an election, I did find cases where I had to disqualify a boy for this reason or that. And sometimes I found cause to overturn decisions of the PLC and/or troop that were going in a direction that was all wrong. We're example setters ourselves, and our example and explanations should be valid and firm. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcquillan Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 It's almost 6:30 AM, and I've ben here at the office for an hour already, but my eyes just now opened. Imagine my surprise when I reread "eisely's" post only to find that he said pretty much the same thing I did.... I get a great big dope-slap for that one. Anyone care to administer the punishment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 While enthusiasm and original thought is usually as asset, a bribe by any other name still stinks. He bought votes, you have the proof, he knew it was wrong and you need to re-elect. I would inform the Committee Chair of the situation and what you intend to do, but I wouldnt think you would need approval. If your chair condones such actions, you need a new chair. I would not make the scout eligible for the new elections. If you dont stop this now, whats next? Promises of easy slots in the duty roster? Bigger gifts? Stop it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 While enthusiasm and original thought is usually as asset, a bribe by any other name still stinks. He bought votes, you have the proof, he knew it was wrong and you need to re-elect. I would inform the Committee Chair of the situation and what you intend to do, but I wouldnt think you would need approval. If your chair condones such actions, you need a new chair. I would not make the scout eligible for the new elections. If you dont stop this now, whats next? Promises of easy slots in the duty roster? Bigger gifts? Stop it now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Oh wow, now I am just like Rooster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Long Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Not a bad piece of advice in the lot. Not only would I make the point of vote-buying being unscoutlike. I would make it a point inform them that in the real world it is also illegal and people go to jail for it. I would nullify the election completely not just the SPL vote. Re-vote for everything because everything has been tainted by this. In my eyes this also calls into question the character of your Assistant Scoutmaster. Fraud and dishonesty is no big deal? That's not the message I would like to filter down to my scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Actually Mike hit on a point I forgot to make. If cheating to win an election is OK with the Assitant Scoutmaster, how seriously does he take signing off requirements for advancement? I am from Chicago, and even where the motto has always been vote early and often, we know fraud when we do/see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarrow Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Nullify the election. Explain why. Make the rules clear. But don't assume the scout knew he was cheating. We have had this problem in the schools for a long time and no one seems to think it is cheating. He may have merely run his "campaign" the same way that is accepted practice in school and not thought there would be a problem. My daughter in 4th, and 5th grade ran for office for student government. Bribes, promises, candy, stickers and toys were not necessarily forbidden. Some items were some years but, generally it was not discussed and the rules were not laid out so kids handed out all sorts of things depending on their family's resources. My daughter ran a clean campaign and lost for two years. On the one hand I felt she had played fair on the other I felt she was penalized by not playing the game. After all handing out "vote for me" toys, candy and stickers were not against the rules for running. Her 6th grade year they said no to candy, but one girl's mom went in and was able to get the administration to allow candy as long as it was not expensive name brand candy and got the jump on all the other kids who were "obeying" the rules. That year I allowed her to bring in generic candy corn, after the door was opened so to speak, and she won. Hmmm. It's how the game is played in the schools. As I said it is possible the boy didn't realize that it doesn't happen in scouts. I HATE having kids go to bigger and better bribes in school. It's not clean and not right, but there it is. It's true from elementary to high school and as we all know in professional politics as well. Unless you know for sure the boy knew he was cheating and not just "playing the same old game" I would not personally humiliate him. Just over-turn the election, explain the rules clearly and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 First --- It's a consensus, Nullify the SPL vote. Second --- I agree with Mike Long. Nullify all elections. The election of the SPL usual affects other positions. Third --- I agree with yarrow. Or at least, I might agree with him. It depends. You know this kid better than us. If you truly believe he knowingly attempted to circumvent the process, then I would disqualify him. If you have doubts, then I would provide the lecture, but still allow him to run for the position. Forth --- I'm not certain about the ASM's statement. I'm not sure how it came out...Perhaps he didn't fully think about the consequences and was trying to laugh it off..."boys will boys" kinda thing. Here again, you know this guy better than us. If you truly believe he's condoning dishonesty, than he probably should be removed. However, sometimes people say things without really thinking...Maybe this was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 Oh I forgot something... I feel strongly about this. Although I usually agree with eisely, I would not consult the Troop Committee. Here's why - 1) First and foremost, I think you would be opening a huge can of worms. Our committee is large (10 plus parents). The debate would go on forever, and in the end; there would be hard feelings. At least, that's how it would happen in our committee. It could get real messy. 2) As Scoutmaster, it's your job to set the moral tone in the Troop. If you believe the process was corrupted, it's within your right to overturn the election. If you call to talk to the committee, I say...Tell them what you're going to do (don't ask or consult). 3) This is what leaders do. They make hard decisions. You may want to explain that to your Troop. That the decision was difficult, but you felt this was the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 I want to respond further as to why I would reach out to the troop committee in this situation. First of all I agree that decisions about overturning elections are within the authority of the scoutmaster, and, based on the facts as I understand them, if the committee would not back me up on this the committee might find itself looking for a new scoutmaster. My recommendation is based on the idea that there may be kickback from the parents of the boy involved and they might start a campaign of their own with the troop committee. I would certainly advise the committee chair and be guided in part by the response of the chair. I would begin the conversation with, "As you may know there was some unfortunate behavior in the troop election that we just held, and it is my intention to hold a new election ..." I would want to get out in front of the issue with my decision and the reasons for it before any objectors did. If the original poster is comfortable that he would get full committee support, then he may not wish to follow my suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcquillan Posted October 26, 2001 Share Posted October 26, 2001 Good grief...it looks like I escaped without the obligatory "dope-slap".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinton Posted October 26, 2001 Author Share Posted October 26, 2001 Thanks for the support! I had come to the same conclusion. Our Troop is small, 10 Scouts. Our Committee Chair also serves as an Assistant Scoutmaster and we are in agreement in this matter. The boy in question is the son of an Asst. Scoutmaster. I haven't talked this over with him yet but I expect great oppisition to the suggested action, which I have felt was nessessary from the start. The part that REALLY bothers me is that "eisely" is probibly right, the boy will most likely quit the Troop and most likely Scouts. Although this boy is a big problem at meetings, campouts, summer camp, and was almost sent home from Jamboree this year (the local Chaplain placed a call to our sponsering churches Pastor re his actions at Jamboree)and had we not been on an island last year at high adventure camp he would have been sent home, he needs to see that the Scout Laws have meaning for life and are not just memorized words recited at scout meetings. Our meetings are Monday night. I will be discussimg this in detail with the Committee Chair, Committee Members, and the boy's parents Sunday, then make the announcement Monday. Any further suggestions will be appreciated!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now