Can a Den Chief Cord be worn with a Den Chief Patch?

[Beavah]

This is a spinoff from a new member's question thread to handle a discussion/debate about a related issue. CalicoPenn opined:

 

To make matters more interesting, Den Chief is a very rare position in Scouting as it is both a POR in a Troop and a leadership position in a Pack (although your son won't be registered in the Pack). To recognize this, the BSA has created a Den Chief POR badge (usually handed out by the Troop) and a Den Chief Cord (usually handed out by the Pack - Blue and Gold for a Cub Den Chief and Red, Blue and Gold for a Webelos Den Chief). The Den Chief Cord isn't worn when the Den Chief POR badge is worn. BUT - the Den Chief Cord CAN be worn, and SHOULD be worn, when a Scout is sporting another POR badge (like Patrol Leader) on his uniform.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I had never heard the rule that you couldn't wear both, although I do agree that they are redundant. Most of our den chiefs do have a position in the troop, and wear their troop position patch (e.g. patrol leader), along with the den chief cord. But there is usually one den chief who doesn't have any other position in the troop, and he wears both the patch and the cord.

 

I'd be curious to see a citation for the above-mentioned policy.

[emb021]

Ditto on never having heard this 'policy' of not wearing the patch and cord at the same time. If so, why even have them?

 

 

Keep in mind that there are 2 different cords: Cub Scout Den Chief and Webelos Den Chief, while the patch is just a generic 'den chief' patch. I think in the 'old days' the cords were the only sign of office, the patch was added I think in the 70s.

 

[CalicoPenn]

As I am the one that opined in the first place, it makes sense that I state my reasoning, and where it comes from. I was about to do so in the other thread but as Beavah has been kind enough to spin it off, I'll do so here, along with the clarification that was asked of me.

 

First the clarification - I stated that the Den Chief Cord should not be worn with the Den Chief Badge and was asked if that meant that the Den Chief Cord shouldn't be worn. The answer is no, that is not what I said or meant. What I said and meant was that the Den Chief Cord shouldn't be worn when the Den Chief is also wearing the Den Chief badge of office. It should be worn when the Den Chief is wearing another POR badge, or it could be worn instead of wearing the Den Chief Badge (though its hard to wear a trained badge under a blank spot on a uniform sleeve). Now for the exception - the Den Chief Service Award cord is not a Den Chief Cord - it is an award (and the only award that is in cord form, as far as I know). The DCSA cord would be worn with the Den Chief Badge, with the Den Chief Chord, or without either as it is an award that can be worn right up to a Scouts 18th birthday, even if the lad is no longer a Den Chief (and if there is any thought to an additional youth award that deserves a knot, I nominate the Den Chief Service Award - and propose that as the colors of the DCSA are Red, White and Blue, and those colors are already claimed by the Eagle Award knot, that a DCSA knot be an overhand knot, like the District Award of Merit).

 

My opinion about not wearing both the DC badge and the DC cord at the same time comes from a common interpretation (at least in my neck of the woods) of the Insignia Guide - in particular, the Two Badges with the Same Meaning clause, that states that if one has two badges that mean the same thing, one only wears one or the other, not both at the same time. Now many will argue that this applies only to square knots and medals because those are specifically mentioned in that clause; however, in my council, and as far as I can tell, in the neighboring councils, the interpretation is that the Knot/Medal statement is an example, not a definitive limitation, and does not limit the clause just to Knots/Medals but also applies in other cases as well, and does not apply to adults only but also applies to youth.

 

So, given that interpretation, the Two Badges That Mean The Same Thing clause (which can be found in the insignia guide) will also apply to a Scout wearing an Eagle Rank Badge and an Eagle Medal, as they mean the same thing, and would apply to the Den Chief Cord and the Den Chief Badge, because they mean the same thing.

 

Does that mean I will march up to a Den Chief who is wearing both and tell him he can't do that, or to his Scoutmaster and tell him he can't let his Den Chief (or Eagle Scout) do that? Heck no - I'm not going to play Uniform Cop. Instead, I'll just smile and ask the Scout what his favorite part of being a Den Chief is. Why? Because frankly, thats much more important than making sure people are wearing their "steenkin patches" right. That doesn't mean, however, that we shouldn't at least answer the question with the most proper information we know.

 

Calico

 

Edited to make a should read shouldn't

 

(This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

[FScouter]

Since BSA does not endorse holding two positions of responsibility at the same time, I doubt that the purpose of the cord is to enable the uniform to show the den chief position simultaneous with a different position. There isn't any indication that a den chief should choose one or the other.

 

The Cub Scout Leader Book says the den chief wears the den chief badge of office, the shoulder cord, and if earned, the service award cord.

[Gold Winger]

" What I said and meant was that the Den Chief Cord shouldn't be worn when the Den Chief is also wearing the Den Chief badge of office."

 

Do you have a citation for this?

[CalicoPenn]

I guess in my long winded reply, my source got lost. It is the Insignia Guide, under the Special Regulations section - Two Badges with the Same Meaning. In our Council, that clause is interpreted to include Den Chief Cords and Den Chief Badges, which mean the same thing - that one is a Den Chief.

[infoscouter]

Are you sure you're not confusing the Den Chief Service Award, with the Den Chief or Webelos Den Chief cord? The Service Award is typically worn *after* a Scout/Venturer completes his/her service as a Den Chief, since it recognizes earning the award. The Den Chief cord is *not* worn after service as a Den Chief is complete.

[Gold Winger]

" It is the Insignia Guide, under the Special Regulations section - Two Badges with the Same Meaning. In our Council, that clause is interpreted to include Den Chief Cords and Den Chief Badges, which mean the same thing - that one is a Den Chief."

 

However, they don't mean the same thing. The patch is a badge of office, the cord indicates which office (Cub or Webelos).

 

 

[hotdesk]

Okay, the scouts that I know who have served as Den Chief have earned the Den Chief Service Award while still serving as Den Chief.

 

Are they allowed to wear this cord and the patch at the same time??? I would say yes because the cord represents an award and the patch represents serving in the positon.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Here's a quote from the Den Chief Handbook (geez, how many Scout books do I have lying around the house anyway?)

 

"Wear your badge of office proudly. You will receive the den chief badge, which you'll wear on the left sleeve of your uniform. You will also wear the den chief cord on your left shoulder."

 

I think that's pretty definitive. You can argue about whether they have the same meaning or not - but it doesn't really matter. I never liked that guidance in the Insignia Guide anyway - I mean, who is going to take the square knots off in order to wear their medals? The cord does provide more information than the badge - so it's really the badge that's redundant. But the books clearly say to wear them both.

 

As for the den chief service award, the Den Chief Handbook says that Scouts who earn the award "may continue to wear it as long as they are Scouts or Venturers, even if no longer a den chief." So yes, they can wear it with the patch and with the den chief cords.

[emb021]

"Are they allowed to wear this cord and the patch at the same time??? I would say yes because the cord represents an award and the patch represents serving in the positon."

 

Yes. In fact there are drawings in the Insignia Guide showing the wearing of both the service cord and the den chief cords at the same time. Nothing says a youth can't continue being a den chief for another year.

 

[Stosh]

If he's good at it, there's nothing to say he can't serve 3-4 years as a DC! After his first year if he earns the award, then he wears the award cord too.

 

Stosh

[acco40]

Can a Den Chief Cord be worn with a Den Chief Patch? - Yes.

 

May a Den Chief Cord be worn with a Den Chief Patch? - Yes.

 

I'm editing this because I confused the Den Chief Cord with the Den Chief Service Award. The Den Chief POR patch should only be worn while serving in that position of responsibility - much like my Scoutmaster patch.

 

The Den Chief cord is not redundant because the POR patch does not indicate if the Boy Scout is serving a Tiger, Wolf, Bear or Webelos Den. The Den Chief cord indicates that the Scout is serving a Tiger, Wolf or Bear Den and thus adds meaning.

 

The Den Chief Service Award (cord) should only be worn after earning that award, - much like my Scoutmaster Award of Merit patch. If still active as a den chief and after earning the award, a Scout may wear both - much like I still wear my Scoutmaster badge and my Scoutmaster Award of Merit.

 

Den Chief Service Award requirements

1. Serve the pack faithfully for 1 full year.

2. Attend a den chief training (if available within year of service) OR be trained by the assistant Cubmaster and den leader.

3. Know the purposes of Cub Scouting.

4. Help Cub Scouts achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting.

5. Be the activities assistant in den meetings.

6. Set a good example by attitude and uniforming.

7. Be a friend to the boys in the den.

8. Take part in weekly meetings.

9. Assist the den at the monthly pack program.

10. Know the importance of the monthly theme.

11. Meet as needed with the adult members of the den, pack or troop.

12. Complete FOUR of these projects:

a. Serve as a staff member of a Cub Scout special event, such as a Scouting show, bicycle rodeo, etc.

b. Serve as a staff member of a Cub Scout Day camp or resident camp.

c. Advance one Boy Scout rank.

d. Assist in recruiting three new Cub Scouts.

e. Assist three Webelos Scouts to join a troop.

f. Help to plan and carry out a joint pack-troop activity.

g. Recommend to your Scoutmaster another Boy Scout to be a den chief.

h. Assist three Cub Scouts to become Webelos Scouts.

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[hendrickms24]

All,

 

A Good way to look at the difference between the Den Chief cord and the POR patch is the following. The POR patch tell you that the Boy Scout is filling the leadership position of Den Chief were the cord tell you what part of the Cub Scout program he is involved in. His uniform will tell you all you need to know without even asking him.

 

Mark M.