Pants crusade?

[hops_scout]

A few of you need to watch your comments. I have just read this thread in its entirety and have found a couple of posters who could easily have things edited. I, however, did not edit them but those comments are pushing the envelope. Please remember this is not the Issues and Politics area.

 

I do highly encourage debate, however, personal insults are not allowed. Chances are the person(s) who are at fault know who they are.

 

Personally, I dont mind the pants. The shorts arent my favorites, but I'll live.

[Torveaux]

Complaining without providing solutions would be wrong. I and others have provided potential solutions and alternatives. That is not complaining, that is providing constructive criticism.

 

You are making assumptions about what some of us have done vis-a-vis contacting National. Just because we individually contact National about our concerns does not mean we should not try to discuss our ideas and see if there are any better ideas or a consensus solution.

 

National is not going to do anything if only one or two of us contact them, especially if we each have different solutions.

[scoutldr]

"I like this uniform, I liked the one before it and the one before that. I will like the next one. I will wear it complete because that is how you wear a uniform."

 

Gosh, I DO hope the next uniform is not a thong.

 

"What the book says is that a uniform should not be mixed with civilian clothes. That it is better to wear no uniform than a mixed uniform."

 

I need a chapter and verse for that, please. I made that statement in a SM Specific course once and some grumpy old man challenged me on it. All I could find was "encouraged to wear as complete a uniform as possible".

 

I have a 100% cotton shirt that I bought new from eBay. It looks good as long as it is freshly washed, starched and pressed. Can't wear it right from the dryer, tho. I doesn't seem to be holding it's color as well, either. As for comfort, it is superior.

 

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Hops,

 

[anarchist]

 

What to do!?, what to do!?

 

some say tell BSA...How? The survey on the web site???Try it...I did! Like the poll for a new husband my wife took...five choices for change but you can only pick one??? Heck, My wife wanted to select all five changes...no luck there! HOW BOUT WE ALL EMAIL BSA SUPPLY THESE PAGES!!!!! send a few thousand pages to a friend! what a brilliant stroke! (and what a waste of time)...but gripe'n is what we do when we ain't fight'n...beats ladies home journal (though the recipes are nice) Join me in a cup of joe? Hunt.

[Torveaux]

scoutldr,

 

Bob is rarely wrong on chapter and verse issues. Here it is:

 

Cub Scout Leader book, page 12-11.

 

"Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform."

 

Now, a 'jailhouse' lawyer could quibble because they use the word should rather than must. I think the spirit of the rule is as Bob White suggests, however.

 

Conversely, unless one has BSA issued footwear, this rule would preclude wearing 'civilian' footwear with the uniform. Apparently the uniform look is to remain in stocking feet. This also calls into question civilian undergarments, coats (except the red one), and the like. I guess if we are to stick to the letter of the 'law' we are all to wear our uniforms 'commando' sans underwear and shoes/boots. I guess those of us who live in colder climates must just buck up and wear that thin wool jacket. Layering consists of the uniform shirt and the jacket, remember, no unofficial longjohns or sweatshirts are to be added. Since there is no official uniform rainwear, those of you living in rainy climates are expected to just deal with it. Wearing 'civilian' ponchos and the like is not authorized. The alternative, of course, is to only wear the uniform on nice days.

[Backpacker]

Torveau,

 

Great post, I'm still laughing. I wonder what Bobby White will say? You don't want to incur his wrath do you?, lol. Commando boy scout troops, I can see it now.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It implies that the CO, the Pack committee, the individual Scout, and/or any individual leader can make any uniform policy as they see fit as long as the Pack does not change the uniform policy.

 

It also reads that one must wear the total uniform or as the Bear Patrol says, 'come Bear naked'. This should not be done in cold climates or in rainy zones or near the Bible Belt. I suggest wearing anything else other than the uniform to combat this problem. Actually, that may become the new policy, don't ever wear the uniform and the entire Pack will be within the uniform policy. It costs nothing to do that and any simpleton can see that they can save $100.00 or whatever amount was the suggested retail price of all of that stuff.

 

Now, the total uniform can be worn with any number, type, and kind of civilian wear including extra shoes and socks, underwear, coats, hats, earrings and anything else that one may possess. This policy may indeed be the key to unlock several mysteries that we have all struggled with for so long. It may also reduce whining and all of the myths that have plagued us and we owe it all to the BOOK.

 

I suggest some type of ceremonial music at this point. Knowing the rules makes us rational!

 

FB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Torveaux]

Please do not misunderstand here. I had no intention of tweaking Mr. White nor calling him out in any way. I highly respect his knowledge of all things Scouting and I hope he continues to share this knowledge in this forum.

 

My contention is solely with the way the rules are written. In some ways they are very explicit, in other ways they can be manipulated to read many things into them.

 

I think a better procedure would be to require the uniform shirt and neckerchief. Those who cannot afford a shirt will have a shirt provided for them. Afterall, to those unfamiliar with the 'rules' the shirt makes the scout (including all of its regalia). I do think the whole uniform looks sharp and highly encourage wearing the whole thing. [My boy has the whole set other than the official pants. I think it is simply moronic to buy a new pair of Cub Scout pants every 4-6 months due to growth or damage, especially in our case given the fact that navy blue pants are required for the school uniform and sell for about $8. (about 1/4 the cost of official pants) To any but the most experienced eye the school pants look like the official pants. Sorry, but at heart I am cheap, BP would call me thrifty.] In an effort to encourage official uniform wear, quality unit awards could require a certain percentage of fully uniformed boys (again, exceptions need to be made for those unable to afford the uniform). Additionally, getting fully uniformed could be elective material or be used as part of a "Sharp-dressed Scout" award. For the Boy Scouts, maybe the 'entire' uniform can be required for Star and above. Let's do what we can to get as many boys uniformed as possible. A policy that says all or nothing is more likely to get nothing than all.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Thanks, Torveaux. But, seeing as how I was teaching a SM Specific course, we didn't have our Cub Scout Leader books handy. Since the word "should" is used, I assume it is "guidance" and not "policy".

 

Since a uniform is not "required", if a Patrol all showed up in civilian attire for a uniform inspection, would they win, since there would be no points deducted? Hmmm.

[Fuzzy Bear]

"The rules are the rules and the interpretation of the rules are up to who is in charge." It can be shown that for every rule there are ten interpretations (*an estimate based on Letterman's Top Ten) of that rule. Believing that your truth is Everyman's truth has been shown here to be brittle and generally without substance too many times. This principle is the cause of much consternation in this forum. It is not defending one's right to truth as much as it is to speaking one's truth that is at issue.

 

It would be a simplistic exercise to just write the rules here for everyone to read and believe that you have done your duty. It is the search for truth that brings us together and makes the efforts genuine. When we listen to each other and we discuss what we do and how we do it that brings light and it begins to define elements of that truth. It may be that we never agree but it is in those moments of sharing when something happens that is greater than the individual can do alone.

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Bob White]

Please provide the 10 different logiocal interpretations for..

 

"The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform."

 

BW

[FScouter]

Rules. Regulations. Policies. Should. May. Usually. Guidelines. Interpretation.

 

It really does not matter at all how it is written. The intent is perfectly clear. Some that disagree with the meaning behind the words will use bend and manipulate these words to suit their own personal preferences.

 

We all know what is right.

[Torveaux]

OK, I'll play. (note, this is for fun, not an endorsement of a policy one way or the other)

 

10. The Council may make changes to the uniform.

9. The District may make changes to the uniform.

8. The Den may make changes to the uniform.

7. The Parents may make changes to the uniform.

6. The Cub Scouts may make changes to the uniform.

5. The Pack may authorize modified standards of wearing the existing uniform.

4. The Pack may substitute similar items in lieu of individual uniform pieces without making changes to same.

3. The Pack may authorize an alternate uniform.

2. The Pack may create its own uniform.

1. The Pack has no authority to enforce the uniform rules anyway.

 

 

Fscouter, "we all know what is right". If that were true we would not be having this discussion. Many of us believe the "right" thing to do is to have a rational policy that encourages uniform use without authoritarian mandates that are unenforcable. Your statement suggests that you know best and we are all wrong. Since we do not all share your view, it cannot be correct. (absolutism is great, ain't it?)

[FScouter]

It is not right for any of us to do what we THINK is right, or what we WANT to be right. It is only right for us to do what IS right. So what is right?

 

I would hope that we all know what is right. We use the methods of Scouting to achieve the aims of Scouting to fulfill the mission of Scouting. That is right.

 

Various differing beliefs about what the uniform should be or should not be are not wrong. Opinions and ideas are not wrong. What is wrong is ignoring or disrespecting what is because we dont like it. Uniform is a method of Scouting. The uniform is defined and controlled by our national organization. We all know this. How could any adult leader possibly be confused about whether or not a unit should wear a uniform, or whether or not a unit may re-define the uniform?

 

I do not know best, but there are few things I do know.

 

I know what is, which may or may not be best. I know that I have no business unilaterally changing what is. I know if I dont like what is, I may work to change it through the channels of change.

 

I know that over 94 years, BSA has figured out a few things. I know they work. I know that I do not know better. I know that I may not LIKE what is right, but I DO what is right because I am a member of this organization.

 

We may believe that the right thing is something different than what is. Then work for change. Meanwhile, what is the right thing to do?