Shoulder loop proposal

[Yak_Herder]

The proposal is this: change the color of the shoulder loops worn with the forest green Venturing uniform shirt from green to white.

 

The reasons for doing so are simple.

1. Green shoulder loops on the forest green uniform shirt are barely visible, defeating their purpose.

2. The forest green shirt and the particular shade of green chosen for the shoulder loops look poor alongside one another.

3. Due to the evolving uniform policy and despite clear statements to the contrary in the current uniform guide, green shoulder loops are commonly yet incorrectly worn on the khaki Boy Scout uniform shirt.

 

Changing the Venturing shoulder loop color to white addresses each one of these problems.

 

As one of the colors associated with Venturing, yellow (gold) shoulder loop would perhaps be more intuitive. However, everyone knows that color is already utilized.

 

White, the second color on the Venturing flag and a color used liberally on Venturing insignia is the logical choice. It is clearly visible on Venturings forest green uniform shirt, and would contribute to the overall smart, crisp look of a Venturing uniform. White shoulder loops would produce a side benefit: no one would tend to wear white shoulder loops on the khaki Boy Scout uniform. An additional benefit is then made available: with green no longer being used, Venture Patrols would be free to use them without conflict.

 

Those problems solved, we can look for further utility. Other nagging issues could also be addressed.

1. Venturers continue to ask for a form of recognition reflecting accomplishments in Venturing that is neither a hanging medal nor a campaign style bar for everyday, field wear.

2. As part of the Venturing program, Sea Scouting uniform concerns need to be considered. They are wrestling with shoulder boards and navy blue (black) shoulder loops.

3. Shoulder loops employed by other Scouting organizations in the world are more elaborate and in some cases are actually becoming collectible.

 

How would a white shoulder loop address these issues? Well, they dont directly. To do so would require further modification.

 

Shoulder loops are clearly very inexpensive and easily made. Certainly the profit margin is adequate, and as Martha Stewart would say, Thats a good thing. Any proposal being made should preserve that advantage.

 

I understand one of the ideas floating around the Sea Scout community (pun intended) is to add shoulder loops to the uniform and maybe even wear rank pins there. Those are interesting thoughts. I dont know how shoulder loops are to be worn on shirts that bear no epaulets, but I guess that is being worked out.

 

Perhaps a color change to the Venturing shoulder loops invites an opportunity. Sea Scouters could continue to wear the current uniform with shoulder boards, and when wearing Venturings forest green/slate gray uniform could wear the white shoulder loops with the same rank insignia being discussed in those circles pinned through them.

 

The suggestion for white shoulder loops takes on a slightly stronger momentum with that move. Sea Scouters certainly can identify with that color.

Finally, why not offer white shoulder loops with a symbol embroidered on them representing bronze, gold and silver award recognition? No pins, no fuss, and they dont get lost in the field. The supply division stocks a few more items, so inventory rises a bit, but they are cheap and in the end it means increased sales. How can they refuse that?

 

Embroidery is inexpensive and if done well can add greatly to the perceived value of the item. The swappers at Jamb-o-rees will love it. Yet again, white proves itself a good choice as it is an excellent color for the background material.

[DDHII]

That sounds like a great idea. You should also foward your ideas to Thomas Franklin, National Venturing President, or Josh Green, Western Region Venturing President. Maybe, your ideas might become a reality.

 

YIV,

 

Dale

[purcelce]

Here's an interesting twist. I'm sure it's done in other areas also. I saw a Venturing Crew that wears the Boy Scout Tan Shirt with green shoulder loops.

[Fat Old Guy]

A Cracker Jack sailor suit with shoulder boards? Davey Jones will turn over in his grave.

 

Actually, what I'd like to see is that the shoulder loop system be changed around to make the shoulder loops match the service star circles. The service star circles are the historic colors related to the different programs and, as I understand, the tassles worn with knee socks matched them.

 

So we'd have

Cub Scouts with gold loops

Boy Scouts with green loops

Venturers with red loops

District could stay with grey loops

National could switch to white loops.

 

However, this will never happen.

[acco40]

Am I missing something or can't Venture Scouts (Crews) choose their own uniform so the question is moot? (Uniform is a method of Boys Scouts but not Venturing).

[DDHII]

Venturing Crews cannot wear the green epaulet loops with the khaki uniform. Only green on green, unless the Venturer or adult advisor is serving at a district, council, regional, or national levels. Venuring Crews can choose their own uniform, however it is strongly recommended to wear the kelly green Venturing shirt with grey Venturing pants. A crew may change the uniform, however, only green loops may be worn on green shirts. Some crews even opt out of wearing a uniform at all.

 

The Aims and Methods of Scouting effect all program areas, including Venturing. However, uniforming is less stressed to allow more crew flexibility in their programs and also since most teens prefer a less structured program and less uniform rules. Sea Scouting, however, (a subdivision of Venturing) requires a uniform to fit the needs of their respective program.

 

Dale

[Yak_Herder]

DDHII: I will. Where do I find their addies?

 

purcelce: That uniform option is expressly forbidden in the BSA uniform and insignia guide. It's a long story.

 

Fat Old Guy: Not the Cracker Jack uniform the youth participants wear. The shoulder boards are worn on the adult leader dress whites. As I understand it, the move to shoulder loops is widely hated. Not only is the look changed, but from a practical standpoint they have a real problem. The navy uniforms the Sea Scouts wear do not have epaulets! How are they going to wear shoulder loops?

 

acco40: NO, you've got the right idea. However, you're missing one important detail. IF a Venturer wears the green/gray uniform they need to do it per the uniform guide. The color of the shoulder loops are defined, therefore, not an option.

 

Interesting tidbit:

I saw a ship of Sea Scouts once that were at the time wearing the green/grey uniform rather than their more traditional Cracker Jack or Utility uniform. In the spirit of having a little fun, they choose to wear a red shoulder loop on the left shoulder and a green shoulder loop on the right shoulder.

5 brownie points for the person who can explain why.

Hint: It had nothing to with Boy Scouts wearing red and Venturers wearing green.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Yak Herder: I should DQ myself but I won't. Running lights. That's pretty good.

 

If BSA insists that Sea Scout Scouters wear loops, then BSA will have to start making a crappy white shirt.

 

Where does it explictly state that Venturers may not wear the khaki shirt?

 

I'm also wondering why Venturing has that square patch that goes on the right sleve that says, "Venturing, BSA." Don't they think that people will know that they are Venturers from the "Venturing, BSA" tag on the front of the shirt?

[Gardyloo]

I mentioned the white loops to two Venture Scouts I saw last night. Their answer was a resounding "YES!!!"

They really dislike the green loops now because they can't be seen. One of them said, "I wonder what color blind person designed this uniform ".

 

One also suggested for recognition, instead of embroidery, sell stars with plastic colored backgounds like GSA uses for their year/level recognitions. Different colored background could indicate the level of award/recognition. They said a star on the shoulder also looks kind of cool.

 

Great ideas Yak!!

[Marty_Doyle]

Red Rigt Return ?

[Marty_Doyle]

I meant

Red Right Return

as in channel buoys?

[Yak_Herder]

Running lights is correct. I thought it was a clever idea.

 

The language reflecting a policy against Venturers wearing the Boy Scout uniform is found in two places:

1. The Glossary section of the Venturing Leader Guide (look under "uniform"), and a better source

2. The Venturing section of the Uniform and Insignia Guide. Look for the paragraph on shoulder loops.

 

BTW, it bans wearing green shoulder loops on the khaki shirt, not the kahki shirt per se. Also, adults can still wear this combo. Call it a shoulder loop loophole.

 

Stepping back a bit, I can see a logic to the policy. Boy Scouts don't wear the Cub Scout uniform either. The BSA didn't do themselves any favor by first allowing (even encouraging) green loops on a khaki Boy Scout uniform shirt and then reversing policy. But, c'est la vie.

 

Anyway, with respect to the "Venturing BSA" patch...

I always thought that it was there to as a substitute for or to preclude wearing a patrol patch. Historically, Senior Scouting programs have a program identification patch in that position. CAW anyone?

In general I like it, but it is a bit bigger than necessary.

 

Fat Old Guy:

I'm with you on the color alignment thought. I ran that same idea by some folks at national a year or two ago and got solidly shot down. A larger, coordinating, guiding hand does not exist. The failure to match service star/tab color to the shoulder loop colors is a classic example of that lack of coordination between departments. So, it got set up incorrectly originally and momentum is felt to be too great to change now.

 

[Twocubdad]

Red for port and green for starboard

[acco40]

Yes, port and starboard. I grew up in a land licked area with garage lights of red and green (Dad's idea, naval reserve officer at the time).

[OldGreyEagle]

what do you expect from a group that introduced the concept of the venture patrol in a boy scout troop, designated by the strip that says Venture worn above the Boy Scouts of America strip on the right side of the uniform and then soon thereafter introduced the new program of Venturing, a totally different program from boy scouts with the green shirt, etc and then doesnt understand why anyone is confused