That was the way it was, I think

[SSScout 1615]

Yep, no one ever earned the first highest award: Silver Wolf.Things change, things stay the same.

Usta be boy joined Scouts (the Boy part), then earned Tenderfoot, whenever you could. Knots, Scout lore, flag ettiquette, .

During the next three months, or later, he could earn Second Class, which was about being comfortable hiking, for the most part. Plant/animal ID, Hike (?)3 miles, basic first aid, couple of knots, fire building, hygiene, that sort of thing.

Another three months, or later, First Class could be earned. More hiking, but now more about REAL camping and skills. Map and compass, better first aid, Morse code or semiphore signaling, cooking over that fire you built in Second Class, camp construction, better knots and lashings, night sky astronomy (Polaris?), dadada.

Now, after First Class, one was expected to be able to TEACH the skills you mastered. Lead a hike. Help plan a good meal. Be a reference for tent pitching and care. Might have more than two dozen camp outs under your pack. Couple of summer camps. First Class, ready for Philmont, Mt. Katahdin, Northern Tier.

 

First class: NOW you can earn those neat Merit Badges you've been reading about. Aviation. Rowboating. Canoeing. Even Basket Weaving.Hey, some are easy. Reading? Drama? Music? I do that stuff at school, almost automatic. Auto Mechanics? Carpentry? I take care of that helping around my home. I can get an award for this stuff? Great! It's kinda fun being Patrol QuarterMaster.Troop bugler, Music AND Bugling Merit Badge.

Six months or longer , and Star is a possibility. Patrol Leader? OA? Found out about that and waited for my turn. ASPL? SPL? Naturally.

 

Another 6 months or so, Life Scout. Service to others? Our Troop does the church's lawnmowing. We get out to clear trail at the camp. Helping to usher, bus table and park cars at the church's suppers. Lotsa help with dad's Lions Club, and more stuff at school. Service required? Heck, it's fun doing this stuff. (No Eagle project per se required. Only "serve your community").

 

Eagle? More Merit Badges. Is it worth the effort? What effort? The Position just sort of happens. It's my turn to be JASM. Mom and pop are there for me. The other Troop families are there. Me and the buds are taking care of business. Court of Honor? We read the script, but it seems to mean something now. Not just words to repeat. Even the younger Scouts seem to be more important now, not just ... irritating. It's neat when the Tenderfoot can actually send and receive wigwag. Oh, wait, he's a Second Class now. Cool.

Another six months and.... Paper work. Another Board of Review. ANOTHER Board of Review. And Eagle .

Seems so long ago.....

[BadenP 93]

SS

 

Yeah I remember those days. Now a boy comes into a troop at 11yrs and has his Eagle and most of the merit badges by age 13. Where has the program gone wrong? My crew leaders referred a boy to me the other day, a 13yo Eagle with over 50 merit badges, who wanted to join our crew. I told him he needed to wait until he was 14 which he didn't like one bit. So I asked him what he enjoyed the most about his boy scout experience and he said to me "Nothing all I did was study, study, study. I hated camping so I went on the least camping trips possible, learning knots, outdoor cooking, and hiking I thought were a waste of my time."

 

I just smiled at him and told him he should probably find another crew as we are an outdoor emphasis high adventure crew and he would be out of his comfort zone. Then I asked him why did he go for the Eagle if he hated scouting so much. His answer, "because it was so easy to do." What a sad commentary on todays boy scout program. As I see more and more 13yo Eagles I have to wonder what has happened to scouting and why.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Basementdweller 608]

Again another post for the guardians of the Eagle....

 

I agree with the number of 13 year old eagles and their typical short comings.

 

Maybe it is time for all first class scouts to be tested by the DE's over a first class skills weekend????????

 

Remove the Parents, remove the unit leaders, remove the district politics.......

 

The boy, the task, the skill, the accomplishment the sign off.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

And you want the DE's to do the testing?

 

I like the concept BD, but I am not sure having the DE's do the testing would be salient

 

Maybe the Scoutcraft Director of the Councils SUmmercamp (If they are any good) but not a DE

[perdidochas 658]

Statistics show that the Eagles we are getting are actually older.

 

Current average age of scout earning Eagle - 17.6 years

Average age of scout earning Eagle 1940' s - 14.9 years

 

[cbowe 20]

Hi, I have been lurking for a while. I am amazed at the amount of 13 year old bashing that goes on. There are so many threads and posts that is was hard to decide which one to post on.

 

I joined scouts after cub scouts. I, with my patrol, went camping every month with the troop. We rarely did patrol only outings. I went to summer camps with the troop, then provisionals. I went on high adventure trips, canoeing trips in Northern Maine, backpacking trips in the White and Green Mountains. I moved through the ranks like clockwork. I finished all the Eagle requirements at 14 and got around to having my board shortly after I turned fifteen. I was not a super go getter about advancement it just kind of happened. I eventually moved to explorers. I thought we had a pretty good troop and program.

 

I found Eagle to be pretty easy, to be honest. Skills you learned by going camping and hiking. Most of the required merit badges were academic and boring but not really very difficult. I earned my 3 palms, just to have one of each; again, not very difficult. My dad used to say oh it was much harder when I was a kid" and that the whole thing is so much easier now then.

 

Oh I forgot to mention I earned my Eagle in the mid 70s.

 

The only things I see as easier about getting Eagle today is that you dont need to trudge to a library and face the Dewey Decimal System to find information. Today you can hop on your computer and find in 30 seconds what it used to take hours to find. I also question how BoRs are done now. Why is it called a Board of Review if you are not allowed to review anything? ...but I digress. Sure there are some 13 year old Eagles who are not ready, but there are just as many 14, 15, 16 and 17 year old eagles that are not ready.

 

If you want to make Eagle harder, collapse the 3 citizens into one long boring badge rather than 3 short boring badges and add badges that have activity requirements ( like hiking, cooking, backpacking) Badges that will require months of effort and planning. I think there could be a huge drop in the number of Eagles though I bet you would still see the 13 and 14 year old Eagles coming out of good programs because they already do those kinds of things anyway. Of course bad programs will continue to sign off unprepared Eagles (of ALL ages).

 

I think in many ways it is harder to do it today than back when I was a scout. Today, seasonal sports are all year round training. Sports have these marathon Friday Sunday tournaments every other week.. I ran cross country, winter track and spring track in high school and I was still able to be very active. School hours are longer. In 7-9th grade I went to school from 12-5, and 8:00-2:30 in high school. My sons 5-9th grade classes go 7:50am till 4:15pm.

 

Also, one last point. Leadership is not an age thing IMO. I know many 17+ kids (and adults for that matter) who could not lead to save their life. I have met many 13, 14 and 15 year olds who were excellent leaders. Younger kids tend to hero worship older ones (11-12--> 16+). A lot of adults mistake that puppy dog following around as a demonstration of the 17 year olds leadership ability its not.

Personally I would rather have a 14 year old Eagles who is around to be an example to the 11 year olds (even if they still need a little marinating) than the 17.x eagle, who has their CoH as or after they turn 18, and disappears off to college never to be seen again (until they have a son who wants to join scouts)

 

In full disclosure:

When my son joined scouts he asked how old I was when I earned my eagle I told him I had just turn 15. He asked how many MBs I had. After I told him he said I am going to get mine earlier than you did and earn more merit badges too. I said ok, we will see.

My son finished his Eagle requirements when he was 13. He passed his board 9 days after he turned 14. He has 110 merit badges. (He wants to earn them all) Some he nailed going way beyond what was required. Some he scrapped by. On those few I would ask a simple question... "Not so prepared on that one were you?, Not much fun was it?". It was all I needed to say to cause him to do better the next time. I did not drive him or help himwell other than drive him and his friend to every library in the eastern half the state for meetings. He and his friend got together 2-3 times a week (outside of troop meeting/outings) to work on MBs. They pushed each other. They both earned their Eagle within a month of each other. They both also have their 1st level Hornaday award and are actively working on the bronze. Their Eagle projects had over 400 hours of labor. Labor they recruited. For my son, scouts has been a just about photo perfect experience.

 

Before the usual jabs occur He has had 80+ different councilors on those badges. Only 3 were earned at summer camp. 12ish were earned from troop related councilors, and none of those were the required badges. The rest required he use the council list, call up strangers, arrange meetings and follow-up meetings. I have to say, from sitting in the next room listening, that 99% of those councilors were pretty darn good. His troop does 35-40 nights of camping a year. The troop is scout run. The PLC sets the schedule, picks the activities, make the reservations when needed, rents any specialized equipment needed, secures drivers and ensures there is a minimum of 2-deep leadership. He (and his friend) have been doing 4+ nights of camping a month since September as they are in a Krew going to Philmont this summer. He raised his own money to pay for Philmont by recycling cans and bottles. 35,000 cans and bottles are a lot of work to recycle.

 

I also have been around the block enough times to know there is little use in me typing this missive. This topic is religion. Facts and opinion will not sway either side. Both will find their outlier the 13 year old Eagle who is an embarrassment to the program or the 13 year old Eagle who walks on water. As a professional in quality assurance I have found it is easy to pick on an organization's issues and become bitter. I remind myself to try not to stand so far into the dark that you cant see the light. Scouts, for all its faults, can be, and typically is, an excellent experience for kids. (And the adults who participate)

 

 

P.S My son is neither of the above. He is just a bright, focused kid who set a goal and really enjoys scouting.

 

Sorry for the novel, my apologies for typos and grammatical errors and no, I dont get paid by BSA.

 

[JMHawkins 15]

When we started up the troop, we were looking for used camping gear we could seed the equipment locker with. One guy came across a Craigslist ad for a tent. Reason for sale: "My 13 year old son already earned his Eagle, so he doesn't need to camp any more."

 

Now cbowe, the problem there isn't the age, it's the attitude. Someone who lives and breathes scouting and is highly motivated by awards (remember that point, I'll come back to it) can no doubt get everything done in a short period of time. But like Beavah's comments about FCFY, the one-and-done approach doesn't leave much time for practice or repetition to build retention. Does that mean a kid who gets his Eagle at 13 didn't really learn the stuff? Well... it's a touchy subject, especially with the folks around here who did get the rank that early, but...

 

A 13 year old will not have absorbed everything he can from Scouting, no matter how active or capable. Some things will take more time than that, and some things will probably take just being older and in the different context that places a boy in. None of that means it's wrong for a boy to get the rank that young, but it does mean a young Eagle still has a lot to learn and hopefully will remain active for a few more years. Unfortuantely, for those years, the Advancement method is pretty much off the table, since he's already just about hit the celing (sure, palms, but not quite the same motivation I suspect).

 

That's the real problem. Remember I specifically mentioned a scout who really honestly completes the requiremetns for Eagle at a young age has to be pretty highly Advancment driven? That's true - he not only has to have the skills and interest in Scout stuff, but he has to be motivated to get the stuff checked off. If he's not personally advanceent-motivated, then the only way he'll get everything done and organized to fit into a two-year period is if an adult is handling that part for him. Frankly the biggest impediment to our Scouts advancing is them remembering to bring their books and get stuff signed off. So, any kid who honestly earns his Eagle at 13 is pretty highly motivated by the advancement stuff, but because we create a system that lets him burn through 90% of the available advancement in two years, over two-thirds of his scout carreer (if he stays in until 18) is missing one of his biggest personal motivations.

 

I think we can do better.

[dkurtenbach 348]

The underlying problem, as I see it, is the flip side of what many folks see as a great strength of Boy Scouting: BSA allows, tolerates, even encourages infinite diversity in how troops and their programs are operated. There is no single vision -- much less a standard -- for what an Eagle Scout should be or should be able to do.

 

Equally at home in Boy Scouting are those who run a highly regimented, advancement-oriented program full of merit badge clinics, and those focused on the acquisition of a high level of outdoor and preparedness skills, with advancement as almost an afterthought. BSA honors Scouts who use their skills to save lives and Scouts who earn every available merit badge. BSA promotes the Eagle Scout rank -- which can be earned even by a Scout who never hikes a single mile on his two feet -- at the same time it promotes its newest high adventure base.

 

Want to see the confusion about Boy Scouting graphically represented? Check out the cover illustration on the DVDs of BSA's "Scouting for Adventure" television show (http://boyslife.org/home/bl-store/14425/get-your-scouting-for-adventure-dvd-today/). As the title indicates, the show is about outdoor Scout adventures. But on the cover, beneath the title, the illustration is an evenly-spaced line of (white) Scouts and Scouters in full uniform (including some neckerchiefs and merit badge sashes), in rigid, defiant stances, with the one in the center holding the staff of a waving American flag. Scouting for Adventure? Or Scouting for a Parade? (Or if I were cynical, Scouting Defending America Against Undesirables.)

 

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

[allangr1024 71]

When I brought my sons to our troop, i noted a practice that I did not remember. In my youth in the 70's, our meetings were about playing games and practicing putting up army style pup tents. My sons meetings revolved around merit badge classes. The troop would appoint one of the adult scouters to do the Physical Fitness badge, or the Citizenship in the Nation badge. All the scouts had to do was sit in the class, listen to the adult, answer a few questions at the end of the class (usually asked to everyone, as long as someone gave the correct answer the class passed on it), and receive the badge at the next COH.

 

Since then I became SM, and I immediately stopped this practice. It was born from one of the Eagle Mill troops that always boasts 50 Eagles per year. But as I read the literature about the merit badge program, the scouts are supposed to do merit badges OUTSIDE of the troop. They contact a councilor. They meet with him and do the requirements as he directs. They bring the signed cards back to the troop for recording. It puts more responsibility on the scouts themselves to earn the badges. I think that is why I did not get to Eagle. I got most of my badges at summer camp, and they were the outdoor badges hard to get otherwise.

 

I do not think our council maintains a good MBC list anymore. The list I get has a lot of people who don't live in the area anymore. I have to find people myself to teach stuff. That is the big difference in the program I see from 40 years ago.

 

Want to cut down on 13 year old Eagles, do two things: do away with earning merit badges in troop meetings, and don't let dads teach their own sons.

[perdidochas 658]

Stats seem to show that 13 yr old eagles aren't nearly as common as they were even in the 1940s.

[SR540Beaver 116]

DE's testing scouts? I'm still waiting to see a DE who knows the program. I've heard of them, but I'm still waiting to actually see one.

[packsaddle 753]

cbowe, welcome to the forums. Don't apologize for writing from the heart, we all do it eventually. Your son sounds like an outstanding individual whether in or out of scouts and I applaud his achievements.

These forums are an interesting cross-section of scouting and they have evolved a bit over the years. I enjoy reading them because I can see, here and there, elements of social behavior that I find fascinating...in me as well.

If you've been lurking, you already knew what you would be getting into and I'm glad you did. Sometimes it takes someone like you to stand up against prejudice. And we're all susceptible to that.

Anyway, welcome. Come back and write again whenever you like.