Eagle Project Workbook Headaches

[Mad Max 10]

Fred8033: I got no pushback from the Scouters attending the Roundtable. They were all on board for making sure the boys did the final plan to the Units satisfaction. i.e. Cover to cover. They understood that it was no longer the Districts responsibility to police the paperwork, it was theirs. All seemed to agree that the best way to prove that the planning was done properly, was to do your best and complete the final plan with everything that applies to their specific project. Sorry for not being more clear.

Ill have to see how it will all shake out when I get to see the results prior to their Eagle BORs.

As far as when a unit will accept a proposal, it will still be up to the unit. As for my own unit, we are working on that, but if the last three boys are any indication, they showed us their proposals which included as much of the final plan paperwork as they could already commit to. Their projects and their plans were very thorough and they had no problem showing us that they knew what they were doing via the paperwork. They will no doubt get through the District review with flying colors.

Schiff: I seem to remember reading something about Eagle Projects starting in 1965. Not positive, because I have no Eagle Applications from 1964 or 1966. However, I know it existed in 1965, because Ive still got mine and its there, albeit nothing like it is today.

Beavah: Point well taken. The Tour Plan covers much of what you pointed out. Our Council is requiring a Tour Plan for every Eagle Project, with very few exceptions. Seems like a very good way to get the unit involved.

Fred8033/twocubdad: Recently did an EBOR where the Eagle Project was done old style. Two deep leadership consisted of Mom and the property maintenance guy (representing the beneficiary?), who showed his face only once during the project. (Strike one.) The project was next to a pond and some of the work required helpers getting wet. No lifeguard or safe swim defense observed. (Strike two.) Project was fabulous, leadership great, paperwork great, etc. (Home run.) No wonder BSA wants these things to become Unit events. You shoulda seen the look on the adult faces sitting around that BOR when I started quizzing the boy about two deep leadership and safe swim defense. This new program is waking some people up to their own responsibilities for these boys.

 

[fred8033 1593]

Mad Max wrote: "No wonder BSA wants these things to become Unit events."

 

Only in terms of following BSA policies, procedures and Guide To Safe Scouting. Not in terms of coordination and planning.

 

 

[Eagle69 46]

The only part that will cause us a bit of headache is the fact that it is now an "official" troop function. The recent projects have had plenty of Registered Adult Leadership around, but we weren't ever certain as to who/how many were going to show until the day of. As far as the paperwork goes, all project write-ups have been thoroughly reviewed by the Troop Eagle Coordinator, Advancement Chair and SM before we ever give the boy permission to contact the District Eagle guy to find out who he needs to submit his write up to.

[fred8033 1593]

Eagle69 wrote: 'The only part that will cause us a bit of headache is the fact that it is now an "official" troop function.'

 

There's no change in how troops work with eagle projects. It's the candidates project. It's only part of the troop program from the view of policies, procedures, G2SS, etc.

[Mad Max 10]

Fred8033 wrote: Only in terms of following BSA policies, procedures and Guide To Safe Scouting. Not in terms of coordination and planning.

Fred8033 wrote: There's no change in how troops work with eagle projects. It's the candidates project. It's only part of the troop program from the view of policies, procedures, G2SS, etc.

 

True...maybe. Depends on how troops have been behaving in the past I suppose. Our Council now requires a Tour Plan for any troop activity that takes them off of the property of where the unit normally meets. (Usually the chartering organizations building.) That wasn't required two years ago. Many of us believe this requirement is a bit excessive, but it is what it is. So, with Tour Plan in hand, Eagle Projects take on a higher level of expectation and responsibility on the units to perform in accordance with all the BSA policies, procedures, etc. no different than a weekend campout. One only needs to read through a standard BSA Tour Plan to see that the Unit will be held accountable for everything that goes on during an Eagle Project.

If every candidate used the BSA Tour Plan (whether required or not) as a guide to making sure he had the proper support from his unit, all the unit responsibilities would be covered. Probably not a bad approach whether required or not.

 

[fred8033 1593]

Here is where I need to better understand how this will work....

 

From my understanding, the scout is responsible for his project. He would need to secure the tour plan. He'd fill it out and approach his leaders for signatures and then get it submitted to the scout office. It's his project.

 

It would be the job of the unit leader and the DAC when they review and approve the proposal to say to the scout "Remember to secure a tour plan. If you need help with the paperwork, talk to your unit leaders. They can help."

 

The unit leader and DAC would probably also need to say "Remember to follow the G2SS rules for youth protection, etc. Your unit leaders can advise you through this also."

 

....

 

IMHO, the DAC approver needs to have a script to go through when approving proposals.

 

- G2SS

----- youth protection

----- power tools

- tour plan

- STRONGLY RECOMMEND the scout to complete the final plan

- log all time. my time. your time. parents time. driving time. planning time. reporting time. etc.

- keep receipts

- keep donation log

- avoid doing all the work yourself

- demonstrate leadership

- Maybe have a section for special cautionary warnings given the scout.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm....

 

So fred8033, now we're goin' to be tellin' the Eagle candidate that he has to go download and read the entire G2SS, tour plan, unit fundraising guidelines, take YPT and other "mandatory" adult training, and familiarize himself with da Chartered Org's additional rules about outings and youth protection?

 

Somehow, I don't think you've lightened the burden on the poor lad. Though I reckon there is somethin' to be said for making an Eagle Scout develop an appreciation for all the bureaucratic hoops the adults have jumped through all these years so as to offer him a scouting program.

 

I really don't think this is that hard. Yeh run it just like yeh run a regular troop or patrol outing.

 

In a regular patrol outing, the PL puts together a plan, gets it scheduled with the PLC, and the Troop Committee approves the calendar/basic proposal. The PL works out gear with the Quartermaster, budget with the scribe/treasurer, plans out the details, communicates with his patrol, and runs the outing. Meanwhile, the adults file tour plans, work out the adult coverage and the G2SS issues.

 

Easy. If you've been leadin' a youth-run troop, by the time a lad comes up for Eagle he should be completely comfortable and familiar with da process that your troop uses. It shouldn't be anything different. If yeh haven't been leading a youth-run troop, well, then, I reckon yeh need to fix that rather than tryin' to put a whole mess of brand new burdens on the lads at Eagle Project time.

 

B

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Fred is trying to cut a path between two conflicting parts of the new G2A which, on the one hand, makes it the Scout's option whether or not he shares any details of his project implementation with the unit; but on the other hand now makes Eagle project work sessions official troop activities.

 

There are so many other ways to get to the destination, this is a path we never really need to walk. We've had multiple threads on how to avoid all this and right now I don't have the time or inclination to rewrite it all.

 

Bottom line for our troop will be that we have an expectation that our Eagle candidates with complete the Final Plan portion of the EP workbook, submit it to the troop and cooperated with the PLC and troop leaders to organize his work days. True, a Scout now has the right not to do that. He also has the right to call my mother names and talk bad about my dog, if he so chooses. But don't expect that I'm going to smile and sign his Eagle application while he does.

[fred8033 1593]

Beavah ... Just because eagle projects need to be G2SS compliant that doesn't mean the youth needs to take youth protection or read the whole G2SS. That's a world record jump to conclusion. Simple coaching by the DAC or by his eagle coach or unit leader should be fine. A little assistance filling out documents is fine too. It should be as easy as at the DAC proposal sign off, the DAC rep can simply remind the scout that holding events requires either needs two registered leaders or one registered and one parent of an attending scout. Same with power tools ... "When you plan, remember that only adults are allowed to use power tools. Or if you can, find a way to avoid using them."

 

 

 

Beavah wrote: "Yeh run it just like yeh run a regular troop or patrol outing.

 

That's where I hugely disagree. First though, I assume when you wrote "yeh run it" you are refering to the scout running it. As we both know the eagle scout candidate runs his own project. And it would be very wrong for adults, troops or patrols to run eagle projects.

 

It's hugely different because it's not a troop or patrol outing or activity. Eagle projects are individual advancement. Some projects may have portions that reflect "outings", but not necessarily.

 

Once you make it a troop or patrol outing, it opens a pandora box of other topics. Is the troop treasurer to produce financial statements for the Eagle project? Review and approve budgets? Is the committee to have signup sheets and track attendees? Is the committee to approve work dates and locations? Reserve the sites? Review what's to be done each day?

 

Then there's the next natural step that DOES HAPPEN ALREADY. Committees that start asking "Who's our next eagle?" Committees throttle and control who does eagle projects when. "Oh, we've already got three Eagle projects under way and we're now planning summer camp. You need to wait until the fall to start your eagle project."

 

...

 

The Eagle workbook has three approvals (signatures). Project proposal. Fundraising proposal. Final Report. In between, BSA tells the scout he has responsibility to run his project and latitude to make decisions. Troops doing anything else moves the "Final Plan" from a document useful to the scout to organize his planning to a required document that gets distributed all around and reviewed / approved by everyone at every step of the process.

 

I absolutely cringe and thank heaven for our troop and our scoutmaster when I hear things such as I wont sign a fundraising proposal or tour plan until I review the project final plan. That is just adults gaming the system to keep control and to circumvent BSA concepts, processes and procedures.

 

Ya gotta stop hovering. Let go. Let the scout take responsibility.

 

...

 

For me it's a big issue because in our troop for years and years ... eagle projects are separate activities. Usually by the time an Eagle candidate is ready for his project, he and his fellow scouts have run things for years in the troop for years. Now the eagle candidate should be allowed to run it on his own. Especially as it's his individual advancement. Similar to merit badges. Troop committee doesn't discuss who's working on what merit badge when ... or manage events ... or track merit badge attendees. In the same way, the troop doesn't manage the execution of eagle projects.

 

...

 

After a few years of drought, we've had five eagle scouts in the last two years. And I've been at every committee and planning meetings. We don't coordinate Eagle projects. We rarely if ever even chat about eagle project progress. And I've known the scoutmaster for years. He doesn't get involved after the initial signature ... unless asked. I asked him once about his not tracking eagle projects and I still remember his puzzeled response. "Why would I?"

 

 

[fred8033 1593]

Twocubdad wrote: "... but on the other hand now makes Eagle project work sessions official troop activities."

 

They are official troop activities from the view of risk management and interpretation of policies and procedures. The eagle workbook says

 

"Risk Management and Eagle Scout Service Projects All Eagle Scout service projects constitute official Scouting activity and thus are subject to Boy Scouts of America policies and procedures. Projects are considered part of a units program and are treated as such with regard to policies, procedures, and requirements regarding Youth Protection, two-deep leadership, etc. The health and safety of those working on Eagle projects must be integrated with project execution. As with any Scouting activity, the Guide to Safe Scouting applies. The Sweet 16 of BSA Safety must also be consulted as an appropriate planning tool. "

 

 

It's called out to intepret how to apply policies and procedures. There is NOTHING written anywhere that I've seen that integrates eagle projects into the unit programs.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[CalicoPenn 729]

Project Manager: An often highly paid person who stands between the person doing the work and the client, usually mucking things up for everyone involved.

 

I just don't get the angst that's been expressed here. This new workbook seems to simplify things but apparently some just can't work unless things are made so complicated that it makes a Rorschach blot look like a perfectly drawn triangle.

 

I'm particularly troubled by the notion that the District folks need to oversee what the Units are doing because the Units can't be trusted.

 

Creating a new nature trail doesn't take a 30-page proposal. I have yet to see an Eagle project that needed a 30-page proposal in order to be successful. I can see absolutely no need to have to expand any of these boxes in order to create a good proposal. If the members of the project review think they need more information than a simple description, then the District has the wrong people on the review board.

 

Just for an example - a hypothetical new nature trail:

 

Proposal: Create a new .75 mile wood chipped nature trail through XYZ's west 80 acres with (2) 6-foot long foot bridges over seasonally wet portions of the trail and (6) 8"x10" information sign boards on 4' tall 4x4 posts for the nature center to post trail information on evenly spaced throughout. XYZ will use their own brush hog to rough out the trail once it is laid out.

 

Benefit: Will expand XYZ's nature trails into a little used portion of their property.

 

How long: (4) 6-hour days

 

Leadership:

# of people: 20

Where recruit: Family, Scout Troop, School, XYZ (Beneficiary)

Most difficult about leading them: People will be spread out along the trail, working on different parts of the project.

 

Materials: Wood chips (provided by XYZ) 4x4 lumber; 2x4 lumber, 3/4 inch plywood, wood screws, water sealer treatment, tread netting (for added traction on bridges, lathing and marking tape for locating trail route.

 

Supplies: First aid kit, rope, twine, garbage bags, sunscreen, drinking water and/or gatorade, work gloves, insect repellent

 

Tools: Post hole diggers, rechargable drills with screwdriver head bits, hand saws, levels, bow saws, pruning shears, loppers, wheelbarrels, shovels, hammer

 

Permits: Per the Village of ABC, no building permits are required.

 

Preliminary Cost:

Materials: $300 - possible donation by John's Lumber

Supplies: $150 - First aid kit from Troop 111. Remainder donation of Scout's Grandparents

Tools: Loaned by XYZ and project friends

Other: Food possible donation by Charlies Grocery and D&B's Diner

 

Project Phases:

1) Complete Final Plan

2) Determine work day dates with XYZ

3) Recruit volunteers and draw up work schedules

4) Gather materials and supplies

5) Lay-out trail and supervise, with XYZ Facilities Manager, the trail rough-out.

6) Clear trail, spread woodchips, install sign posts, build and install foot bridges.

7) Ribbon-cutting and lead first nature hike down trail with Volunteers, XYC Staff, and any other interested parties

8) Complete reports

 

Logistics: Materials will be delivered by John's Lumber; supplies to be transported by Scout's parents, volunteers to arrange own transportation or carpool from Troop meeting site. Tour plan will be needed and Mr. Smith, ASM, has agreed to help fill out and file the plan.

 

Safety: Use of power drills restricted to Scouts 14 and over, Totin Chip needed to use bow saws, be aware of heat and sun issues and dehydration, be prepared for cuts, blisters and bruises.

 

Further Planning:

Draw up plans for foot bridges with final measurements and get approval from XYZ.

Draw up plans for sign posts and get approval from XYZ.

Create detailed materials list with quantities based on drawings.

Create map of planned route before laying it out.

Create work-day schedules (what do do, where and when).

 

 

So - everything above will fit perfectly fine in the boxes provided, without shrinking text, and provides more than enough detail for someone to know exactly what the project is going to be. It's a 3-page proposal - and there really isn't a need to make it any larger. One of the things I do as part of my job is to write grant applications - this is about the same amount of detail one gives for most grant proposals these days (there are exceptions - government grants are really intensive but most granting organizations have gone away from the 50 page bound in full color proposals of the past). Now this took me less than 15 minutes to create, including typing as I went along, but I have experience writing proposals - it will take a Scout more time, but it's really all that is needed.

 

We need less project management, and more doing of the projects. I don't see anything about project management in the workbook, I do see the word leadership - and that is not the same thing.

[Twocubdad 665]

Yep, you got it, Calico.

 

Honestly, Fred, you're grossly over thinking this. There has never been a BSA policy intended to withstand this level of parsing. But if you insist....

 

Projects are considered part of a units program AND are treated as such ...." (emphasis, obviously, added).

 

When the policy says, "Projects are considered part of a units program" I intrepret that to mean projects are considered part of a units program. The conjunction "and" makes the rest of the sentence independent of the first part.

 

The rest of the paragraph serves only as a reminder of the unit's obligations. To a trained leader, all that should come as boilerplate as we should be well-versed that health, safety and youth protection policies always apply.

 

Beav makes a good point, too. Presumably this kid didn't crawl from under a log on the last campout with an Eagle proposal in hand. Presumably he's been involved in troop leadership for some time and understand how the troop goes about planning an activity. If his first attempt to run a troop activity is his Eagle project, something is desparately wrong with the troop program. Different troops may handle the process diffrently, but the kid should have been involved enough to understand what that is.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[fred8033 1593]

Twocubdad wrote: "Honestly, Fred, you're grossly over thinking this. There has never been a BSA policy intended to withstand this level of parsing. But if you insist...."

 

It's interesting that I'm over thinking it when I'm just advocating for the simplicity of the process as BSA wrote it. I think BSA did a great job. But adult scouters as always will look for cracks in the process that they can manipulate to inject themselves into the scout's project. The real sad part is that most scouts won't know better and will then later repeat the mistake when they grow up and mentor other scouts.

 

The workbook paragraph was written because previously scouters were interpreting that G2SS did not apply to eagle projects with the reasoning that they were not part of the unit programs. And thus, two deep and other issues were not necessarily followed. I'm pretty sure of my interpretation and the "AND" says how to interpret the statement of it being part of the unit program.

 

If it's "part of the unit program" per your interpretation, then it will be interesting to see the updated scoutmaster handbook, committee guide book and other documentation that reflects how to integrate eagle projects into the monthly PLCs and adult committee meetings. That's where the unit program is coordinated. So I'm sure by your interpretation it would need to be addressed in those.

 

But we won't see that as it's not really part of the unit program. It's only part of the program so as to know how to apply the risk management issues.

 

...

 

If I'm over thinking it it's because I get mad for the scouts that deal with adult leaders that will use the "AND" as an authorization to hold their projects hostage just as projects were previously held hostage to over reaching DAC expectations. "I won't sign the tour plan or fundraiser proposal until I see and review the final plan".

 

It's the whole reason BSA added pages 20 and 21 to the workbook with such great quotes as "Councils, districts, units, and individuals may not add requirements or ask you to do anything that runs contrary to or exceeds the policies, procedures, or requirements of the Boy Scouts of America. ... ... ... Though it is a Scouts option ... ... ... but coaches shall not have the authority to dictate changes, withdraw approval, or take any other such directive action."

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I think I see da problem. It's right here:

 

First though, I assume when you wrote "yeh run it" you are refering to the scout running it. As we both know the eagle scout candidate runs his own project....It's hugely different because it's not a troop or patrol outing or activity....

 

Once you make it a troop or patrol outing, it opens a pandora box of other topics. Is the troop treasurer to produce financial statements for the Eagle project? Review and approve budgets? Is the committee to have signup sheets and track attendees? Is the committee to approve work dates and locations? Reserve the sites? Review what's to be done each day?

 

 

If yeh have a youth-run troop, then an Eagle project is not "hugely different." But in an adult-run troop like is being described here, if yeh want the boy to run the project then yeh have to try to separate it from ordinary troop activities in the way that fred8033 is claiming.

 

The problem, though, is with the adult-run nature of da rest of the program. Why would the troop treasurer produce financial statements for any outing? Didn't the boys budget it and manage the expenses? Why in the world is the committee dealin' with signup sheets or tracking attendees? That's the responsibility of the Patrol Leader. Why in the world would the committee be approvin' the dates and locations selected by the PLC? And good heavens, why are they making reservations and reviewing what should be done each day?

 

If this sort of stuff is how the troop normally operates, then I can see why da unit leaders try to make the Eagle project "independent" just to give the boy some space. Da problem with that, though, is that it's not fair to the boy. You're cuttin' him loose, but yeh haven't given him the training and experience he needs to succeed.

 

What yeh need to do is fix your regular program so that Patrol Leaders and SPL/ASPL really plan and lead outings, the way it's supposed to be. If yeh do that, then when an Eagle candidate comes up with a project he's really just doin' the same thing that he's spent a couple years learning how to do. It's no surprise, it's no big deal, it's not adding a 30 page report or G2SS review or council paperwork. Select goals, choose location, make reservations, get gear, plan budget, fundraise as needed, work with the PLC for feedback/scheduling, work with SM on safety stuff, get approval from committee. The same stuff that happens with every outing.

 

In other words, an Eagle project proceeds just like it's a part of the unit's program. Which it really is and always has been.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Mad Max 10]

OMG Were not even talking in the same language here. AND? / conjunction? I thought the whole purpose of a conjunction was to join together. But TwoCubDad seems to think its purpose it to split into two independent thoughts. Good grief. I seriously doubt that BSA consulted with any of our college English Comp teachers prior to publishing the new literature. Dont confuse me this nonsense. Im still trying to figure out how there can be multiple meanings for the word is, Mr. President.

Clearly, we have two camps here: The Hatfields, who are trying to figure out how to properly and effectively use the Final Plan as a part of an Eagle Project and The McCoys who are trying to justify avoiding it all together.

Ultimately, were all going to do what we want to do anyhow.

I agree with fred8033, that DAC approvers need a script in order to impress upon these Eaglets that there is more to a project than a slick 15 minute, 3 page proposal. Perhaps its unit adult leadership that needs the reminder. Perhaps CalicoPenn has not yet seen a unit that has scammed the system. It happens. But, more often than not, the unit personnel are often times new to the L2E process and are unaware of what is expected. Its the DAC which is there to hopefully keep some sense of consistency within the L2E program. Many units just flat dont know and havent taken the time to read the literature, much less think about it or heaven forbid get some training. Rather than bashing overzealous DACs, could we not just assume that their purpose is to ensure that the units and their boys raise the bar just a little bit off the ground at least? The bar gets so dirty laying there in the dirt. And after all, it IS for the Eagle Rank.

I find it interesting however, that CalicoPenn is so quick to dismiss Project Management, when his 15 minute/3 page proposal was 90% Project Management. You might try reading some of Stephen Coveys books. You lead people. You manage things. Sorry, Ive never met a 4x4 or post hole digger that were capable of being lead into a finished project. But, seen costs managed, Ive seen time managed, etc. A good leader knows the difference and these boys deserve the opportunity to have a little taste of it. Perhaps we could skip the splitting of hairs between Leadership and Project Management. Its all semantics.

The Final Plan is the scouts management TOOL to help get organized, get his thoughts in order and get beyond the 15 minute Proposal and on to the finished Project. BSA had a reason for including it in the workbook and in spite of The McCoys noble attempt to avoid it, I think BSA actually intended for it to be used. Besides, it simplifies for all of us the plethora of spread sheets and lists and other ideas on how to document those things that need to be managed; tools, materials, supplies, time, money, etc. Sure saved me a lot of time explaining how and why to do a spreadsheet.

With regards to units overstepping their bounds with controlling when and where Eagle Projects may be done: I believe it to be more of a coordination thing. Ive seen boys who tried to do their projects on the same weekend as a Troop campout and by doing so tried to seduce much of our senior boy leadership away from the campout to work on their Eagle Projects. Actions like that can create a big problem for any troop.