Eagle Project Workbook Headaches

[fred8033 1593]

Quick correction. The applicable GTA sections are 9.0.1.5 and 8.0.3.0 (sub-point 8)

[Twocubdad 665]

In Avid's defense, the policy has been in effect for exactly four days now. The new guidelines and workbooks started leaking out less than 90 days ago and still don't seem to be in wide circulation. While we've had briefings at Roundtable, our council won't have it's first real training on the new programs until the end of the month. BSA is terrible at rolling out and implementing program changes and this is another example. But don't confuse poor execution with bad policy. In my opinion, the new workbooks and guidelines are right on the money and sorely needed.

 

All your concerns are addressed in the new policy, Max. Your kid uses the new workbook to feed you a line of BS, your response should be the same as it would have been had he used the OLD workbook to feed you a line -- "NOT APPROVED" When the Scout submits his Eagle app to the council office with NO workbook (with or without a note that he will bring his iPad to his EBOR) it is returned to him with a letter referencing the appropriate sections of the new advancement guidelines. If it goes as far an EBOR, the board should be adjourned and reconvened when the proper documentation is provided.

 

Districts and councils will need to develop some finesse in evaluating projects based on the new workbooks. We should expect a learning curve for units and councils alike. But it is absolutely doable if folks will get out of the Six Sigma mentality for Eagle project proposals.

 

While I am in strong agreement with Fred generally, I'll take minor exception with one thing he wrote: "the workbook is really the only piece that can be used to evaluate if the scout led his project." No, you also have the Scoutmaster's signature on the workbook and Eagle application. The beneficiary also signs off that the project was completed to his/her satisfaction. As with all the requirements, it is the responsibility of the unit leader to sign off that the project has been completed.

 

What is different about the Eagle project that we require pages upon pages of documentation from the candidate? Why don't we require him to bring meeting notes, plans schedules, meeting minutes and inventories from his POR? Shoot, we're prohibited from even touching merit badge requirements and that's the area of advancement with the most variability in quality, in my opinion.

 

Another element of the new program you've omitted is the use of Eagle project counselors. Yes, they're optional and the Scout doesn't have to take their advice or even meet with them, but that's how a district can properly guide Eagle candidates from troops with new or weak leaders. If local advancement committees are smart about it, they would assign project counselors to troops, not individual scouts. That would give the mentors the opportunity to build relationships with the troop leaders and help them develop their ability to evaluate and coach projects.

 

Something you wrote, Max, really caught my attention -- "I predict that I'm going to see a lot of disappointing paperwork, very little leadership, even less exposure to Project Management, and virtually no taking responsibility for a significant accomplishment."

 

Interesting. Three of the four items you listed aren't part of what an Eagle project is supposed to be about. Leadership -- yes -- and community service is what I recall from my training. Delightful paperwork, exposure to project managment and an expectation that Eagle projects all be significant is exactly what the new changes are trying wring from the process.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[eisely 13]

In my capacity as district eagle project reviewer/approver I have in the past told some of the eagle candidates who have come before me that one of the life lessons they are getting out of their project is how to deal with a bureaucracy. This is still true.

[Mad Max 10]

Fred8033 Wrote: I know plenty of scouts (and parents) who got approvals but spoke openly of their contempt for the process. That's not taking ownership or responsibility. That's just chasing a signature. And ya know the "scamming" scout and adults would probably have tried to scam the old system too.

Fred8033: Yep, theres always going to be the complainers. I suppose, No good deed goes unpunished, rings true in this business. It took me a couple years to get some convinced that they could no longer submit a novel, and really, really did need to use the official Workbook form. And these were Troop Life-to-Eagle advisors. And then theres the SMs and advisors who think were too tough on the paperwork; dotting the is and crossing the ts and such. Well, some days yes and some days no. Were all human and just doing the best we can in the 10 to 15 minutes we have with each of these boys in trying to determine if they know what theyre doing and are, in fact, taking responsibility for their project.

One of the BSA phrases that I really take to heart comes out of the little BSA Requirements book; another well-known/unknown publication. Ive never seen it written anywhere else, but keep it in mind when involved with Eagle Projects. Dont know if youve seen it but here it is: An Eagle service project should be of significant magnitude to be special and should represent the candidates best possible effort. Key words: Significant Magnitude = the scout needs to stretch just a little bit. Special = Beneficiary needs are met, hands down. Best Possible Effort = Do Your Best. Soup-to-Nuts, this should be the best thing the boy has ever done.

If the scout isnt just a tad bit out of his comfort zone, and if it looks like the beneficiary is merely tolerating the project, and if the kid is obviously putting forth C+ effort (just enough to get by), it will be reflected in the project plan, and up until January 1, the boy might be sent back home for a little more work on his plan. Its mostly about the Scout Sprit with us. Its not about the size of the project, or the dollars involved, or the number of man-hours, etc. Its the personal scout spirit investment each boy is putting into his project that makes the difference. I look them straight in the eye on those three topics before signing off on a project, and then I ask them about them again during their EBORs.

I just think the new process may lower the bar on what makes an Eagle Projectan Eagle Project.

Too early in the game to know for sure, but time will tell. Thats why they pay us the big bucks to do what we do.

 

[Mad Max 10]

Twocubdad wrote: Three of the four items you listed aren't part of what an Eagle project is supposed to be about. Leadership -- yes -- and community service is what I recall from my training. Delightful paperwork, exposure to project managment and an expectation that Eagle projects all be significant is exactly what the new changes are trying wring from the process.

 

2cub: Better go back and re-read the paperwork. It's all in there. I pretty much agree with everything else you touched on.

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Perhaps we're the blind guys feeling different parts of the elephant, but here's the part of the elephant I'm holding on to --

 

We have two active Eagle projects underway in our troop. Two different boys, two different beneficiaries, two different projects. But the two projects are very similar in scope. Similar leadership issues. They both involve a little wood working, a little inside work and the installation. I expect both to take about the same number of man-ours. The budgets are within $100 of each other. Both boys are planning three separate work days. And I think they are similar in benefit to the community, although one is in a much more public place and will probably get more use.

 

One was submitted in November, using the new workbook and guidlines. It is four pages, including the cover sheet. In fairness, this Scouts "Phase II" plan, submitted and approved by the troop, is about 11 pages, including two drawings.

 

The other was submitted in October, using the old workbook and guidelines required by the council. It is 60 pages, including the two page outline provided by thc council of required information. It is also required that the Scout cross-reference the outline with the page number in the proposal where the required information is found.

 

When boys spend more hours working on their proposal than the do the actual project, something is wrong. When boys tell me they almost didn't complete their Eagle for the dread of the project proposal process, something is wrong. When my son tells me he would have finished his Eagle a year ago, but he didn't want to do the project, something is wrong. When the 17-year-old, all-but-project Eagle I had coffee Wednesday afternoon changed his mind about dropping out of Scouts AFTER I explained the new proposal system to him, something is finally righ.

 

The new EP workbook and guidelines are going a long way toward fixing these problems. Honestly, Max, if a few scammers slip by, if the paperwork isn't quite up to snuff, that's okay with this fellow Eagle Scout. Because under the old system we were loosing uncounted numbers of good kids who just saw no need to jump through our hoops.

[Mad Max 10]

2cub: Man I feel sorry for you and your boys. Based upon what you're saying, I'd recommend you scrap your entire Council. That's just not right. One thing that has come out of this change in my council in the past couple of months I've learning more and more about how each of our own districts behave with the L2E stuff. Let me tell you, I'm not quite as pleased with them as I once was. Several of these issues will be addressed at our next Council Advancement Committee meeting and I don't think it's going to be pretty. I'll be wearing my flack jacket. LOL Should be interesting, as we have Dist. Adv. Chairs with years of service (crusty old farts) and some who are newbies (still don't have a clue). With a little over 10 years of my own mistakes under my belt, I figure I'm in a good position to be of some help to the newbies but also know/see when it's time to hang it up. Sounds like you've got some adults that need to retire or get a promotion that gets them away from the Eagle Project responsibilities. But as for you, if you're not on the Council Adv. Committee, you need to just start showing up. They need you.

 

Needless to say, I think it's going to be a very interesting year.

Good luck.

[Twocubdad 665]

"if you're not on the Council Adv. Committee, you need to just start showing up. They need you."

 

 

 

I've hired mercenaries.

[fred8033 1593]

Twocubdad ... The examples you wrote could have been pulled directly from our troop. I know multiple over 18 year old excellent kids who gave up on advancement because of the horror stories getting Eagle projects approved. I know scouts who had their proposals bounced for ridiculous reasons. Now you can debate the emphasis on Eagle and the priorities and what not. But it should not take 3+ months to get a proposal approved. It should not take a 30+ page paper. I really like the new workbook because it gets the scouts away from the bureaucracy side and focus more on driving a service project for others and leading and taking responsibility for that service being done. IMHO, the workbook is dead on the mark. I also like the section that warns the parents about process changes and such. Really cool.

 

Good luck both of you. It will be an interesting year.

 

[Eagle92 110]

Well this topic is about to become a very hot button issue in my neck of the woods, especially since I have a feeling part of the reason why the new GTA exists is b/c of some of the folks in the district.

 

Anyway, some of the old-timers who have caused challenges and added requirements to the Eagle process somehow got back on the EBORs, and at RT started sprouting off "policy" from the old manual, it was actually their MISinterpretation. I had to remind them that a new policy book has come out, GTA, and it is available on SCOUTING.ORG, as well as a new workbook that needs to be used.

 

Unfortunately I was talking to another volunteer about this issue who had a conversation with the old guard and they are adamant about keeping things the way they are. Things are not looking good.

[fred8033 1593]

Eagle92: Points well taken. I bet 95% of the district advancement committees nation wide are grumbling. I think that's also exactly why BSA added pages 21 and 22 to the workbook. Those pages are very well written.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Twocubdad 665]

I can spare a couple of my mercenaries, if you think it will help. They are a lot less expensive than you would imagine.

[Eagle92 110]

Fred,

 

You have no idea of the grumbling these folks have done. They raised a terrible stink when someone new became DAC, told them that he is overall responsible for EBORs and that they were going to follow the book or can go elsewhere. They were reassigned different responsibilities, but somehow have been asked back aboard the EBORs. Only thing I can think of is that the DAC that replaced the one that corrected things asked them back on EBORs since the DE left.

 

 

[AvidSM 11]

New BSA Advancement Guidelines 9.0.2.8 clearly states, "The use of the workbook is required, but occasionally Scouts will submit it without everything called for. In most cases they should be required to fully complete the proposal and project report, and be strongly encouraged to complete the final plan."

 

My interpretation of this guidance is that a workbook must be submitted, but the final plan does not have to be completed or complete - no one approves it. The guidance says "strongly encouraged" and not MUST or SHALL. Since it is not a mandated procedure, a workbook without a complete or completed final plan written in it cannot be the basis of not passing the EBOH.

 

Yes, the candidate still has to show that he did the planning and the development of the project. These are clear requirements for the rank of Eagle. If a candidate without a complete or completed final plan written in the workbook cannot show in some other way that he did the planning and development himself, then I would say he did not meet that requirement.

 

 

[Mad Max 10]

AvidSM: Good luck with that. Your very loose interpretation of the guidelines would not fly in my District and many of your boys would find their trail to Eagle passing through the appeal process in order to get to the summit. There is nothing more clear than what is written on page 3 of the Project Workbook. Only the Official Workbook May Be Used.

I really dont see how the word only can be so misinterpreted. Although, we did have a President once who had to explain that there were different meanings to the word is.

Your Unit, Districts and Council will all have to hammer this out amongst yourselves. I know this will be a hot topic on our own Council Adv. Comm. agenda later on this month, but iPhones and iPads wont be part of the discussion.

 

Maybe you should run over to twocubdad's Council and see what a real quagmire looks like. Twocub's Council would have an iPhone feast.