Eagle and the Minimums

[DancesWithSpreadsheets 10]

Congratulations Ken, to you and your son.

 

DWS

[bacchus 10]

 

Kenk,

Gratz to you and your son.

 

[Huzzar 39]

Hey, Kenk, congrats to your son.

 

What would you do if you had a Life Scout that did not attend a meeting or camping trip for 2 years show up with 21 merit badges signed off and a completed Eagle project?

 

The Scout in question doesn't know the names of any Scout that joined withing the last two years. None of those Scouts know who the "Eagle candidate" is. The Life PoR was a patch wearing deal but not worn any where near other Scouts even though he was nominally PL. He's been credited with the PoR time.

 

Has he met the minimum?

 

BTW, so this doesn't go off on a different tangent, the SM has been replaced. The Life Scout has two years before he ages out. Mom, pop and Scout are pushing for the EBoR so Scout can stop the pretense of being interested in Scouting at all. Once he's done we'll never see him again.

[packsaddle 753]

Huzzar, you wrote, "What would you do if you had a Life Scout that did not attend a meeting or camping trip for 2 years show up with 21 merit badges signed off and a completed Eagle project?"

 

We've had situations that are similar. This is where the perspective of the individual accomplishment is useful. This boy knows what he did. If he has passed the written requirements and the leadership has signed all the appropriate places then give him the EBOR. If he passes that he should be handed the diploma...even if he holds contempt for the college (I have seen diplomas hanging in bathrooms). In situations like this, I like to ask the question for perspective: What is to be gained for the boy or the program for him to be denied this advancement? How does creation of another obstacle - just because he has not met some criterion in someone's mind - how does it benefit him or the program to create that obstacle? As you say, once he has attained Eagle he will be gone. That just might be the best thing that could happen for him in his life. Why would anyone want to exercise such control over his life at this point? The best time to influence him has long passed.

What is the outcome if he gets the award? He will have the award and he may consider it as having minor importance in his life.

He will also know for the rest of his life that he could have been better and wasn't. These kinds of things are also good learning experiences. Perhaps he will think about this and later use the lesson to do better at some future endeavor. Or perhaps he will merely spiral into a destructive pattern of denial and deceit. He could go into politics! Or law!

Either way, unless you know different, he has met the requirements. If he passes the EBOR he gets the diploma. I always wish them luck.

[Stosh 3452]

Kenk, you've got nothing to worry about with your son. I'd sign off on him without any hesitation. Give me a boy that lurks in the background that supports the work of the patrol/troop any day! What "leaders" don't understand is that often times the supportive grunt work is often times seen as the "follower" when in fact it's not the case.

 

Imagine for a moment -- a coach never plays the game, the conductor of an orchestra never makes a noise, the driver's education teacher doesn't sit behind the wheel, and the list goes on and on, but these are all leaders, helping others perform at their best.

 

The example your boy set was more leadership than society will ever give him credit for, but in fact showed his merit with the heart, not the hands.

 

Too often we measure "leadership" in terms of SPL, ASPL, PL, and those patches on the sleeves that give some sort of illusion of honor and respectability, but in fact often times don't prove a thing. Too often we view the grunt work boys as the followers, when in fact if a task has to get done and done correctly, often times it isn't the SPL who rolls up his sleeves and leads, but the kid in the background that says, "Hey, guys, lets knock this out and get on to some of the more fun stuff." That's the real leader.

 

The example your boy set is the real key to leadership, not the patch he may or may not wear on his sleeve. Wars may be fought by generals, but they are won by privates.

 

Congratulations on a boy that sets the pace for all others to follow. He didn't seek the honors, but was dealt a hand of true leadership and he put his whole heart into it and did great.

 

"I tell people that he's not the hare - he's the tortoise. He isn't flamboyant or especially fast or fancy, but he gets the job done." And That's what makes him a fantastic leader! Mother Theresa didn't seek the accolades of the world in what she did, but the example of leadership she set, very few will ever be able to emulate!

 

You are very much mistaken if you ever think you have to apologize for a son like yours.

 

Stosh

[BrentAllen 10]

Huzzar,

Why is this Scout even on your charter? Based on his attendance, I wouldn't have let him recharter after his first year of no-shows. Has he had his SM conference? As SM, it would be hard for me to judge his Scout Spirit, if I haven't seen him in two years. I would be willing to give this young man as much time as he was willing to give to the program.

 

pack,

Why does it matter? Because of reputation. If it doesn't matter, then let's just give Eagle out to everyone. As the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures states, "A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done."

[John-in-KC 311]

Huzzar,

 

Brent has the right of it. If he's a no-show, why did you renew him a year ago? He can always rejoin if he's interested. Rejoining gives the Scoutmaster a tool ... "We expect you active. If you're not active, we'll package your records up and send them to whatever troop you want to join."

[Huzzar 39]

>>Either way, unless you know different, he has met the requirements. If he passes the EBOR he gets the diploma. I always wish them luck.

[packsaddle 753]

I see your point about the charter, Brent. I also recognize that there is 'pressure' for units to 'carry' members who are not very active. But you're right, such a decision would have eliminated the concern along with the boy.

 

But that never happened. The boy met the requirements. Any boy who meets the requirements, yes, should be awarded the rank. The requirements are there for any and all of the boys to meet. Once they all meet them then by all means, they all achieve Eagle.

 

However, the scout spirit question has been discussed many times. If the SM has given the proper signatures then it is a dead issue, assuming he passes the EBOR. If the SM has not given the proper signatures then there is still a decision to be made prior to the EBOR.

 

Folks, requirements are written to be what is minimally 'required'. Not as some baseline above which we pass or fail boys on the basis of how close to the minimum they come. They either meet the requirements or not. If adult leaders signify that the boy has met the requirements then unless BSA has other means redress, the boy should be awarded that which he has earned. The difficulty is that some of us have an ideal in mind that we cannot reconcile for boys whom we judge not to have met that ideal. In this kind of view we are engaging in something even more subjective than the process is already.

[Mafaking 10]

Brent.

 

Is right on top of this topic. I can't add anything other than an amen to each of his posts.

 

Kenk,

 

What one looks for is growth. As a pine tree grows different than an oak and a Palm different than an elm, scouts grow different based on their make-up and expected grandeur at maturity.

 

Did your son, plan is own project, establish his own needs for the project, make the calls and speak with the adults for his project? Did he write his own project description in his workbook, assemble his own photos tally his project's receipts?

 

IF he did these things as he stated he would in his eagle project application then he completed the material needed for his Eagle.

 

What I am referring to when I agree that the minimum shouldn't be the target is that the minimum can be gamed. And because some of this stuff is a little fuzzy, POR for example, it would nice to have more than the minimum three POR's before getting awarded Eagle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Lots of great posts, I didnt see many that addressed the original request

 

How do we solve the conundrum of a boy meeting all the requirements but still not being Eagle material in the eye of a beholder?

[John-in-KC 311]

Actually, it's easy.

 

If the Scoutmaster has a good relationship with the Scout, then it's a calm, quiet, but tough love SM conference. It might even be a good idea if it's done away from the distractions of the regular meeting, but under the broad rules of no 1/1 contact.

 

Now, if the Scoutmaster lacks that relationship, he can simply choose to deny a youth an Eagle Scoutmaster Conference, or decline to sign off on the conference or the app. He has the right to do those things. Even so, the Scoutmaster needs to understand he has created an appealable event under National advancement policy. At that point, the Scoutmaster has to accept he/the Troop may come out on the short end, and the Scout be awarded Eagle.

 

The Scoutmaster has a bunch of competing interests to weigh, and the two that should drive him are: What's best for the Troop as a whole, what's best for this boy? I would think most Scoutmasters would be willing to visit with the CC, UC and COR when they have such a conundrum youth...

[packsaddle 753]

"How do we solve the conundrum of a boy meeting all the requirements but still not being Eagle material in the eye of a beholder?"

 

You can please all the people some of the time.......but you can't....

OK, that was glib. But that is reality. I've dealt with this in the past between scouts and adults who viewed those boys with a personal view in which the boy didn't 'measure up'. Once this kind of opinion has formed, it is difficult to change it.

This is why I also asked questions that also have not been answered. I'll ask them again and expand on them.

How does it benefit a boy to prevent him from advancement even though he's completed the requirements? How does it benefit the program?

 

I'd like for someone who sees clear benefits to present to this forum the wording of the criteria that he would apply to all boys in order to make sure no boy created this conundrum in the future. Really, if someone out there can write a clear, unambiguous requirement that all boys can read and understand, a requirement that all boys would understand they have to meet in order to gain approval, I'd really like to read it. C'mon, give it a try. Ought to be simple, right?

 

Edited part: Here, I'll help you a little with a quote from the end of the parent thread, jblake47 wrote:

"Thanks Beavah for the thread. It speaks directly to the problem I'm facing with a lack-luster scout who's earned the rank but shows nothing as even an inkling of anything beyond the minimum."

"....who's earned the rank..."

but someone thinks this is a real problem, and maybe the boy doesn't deserve it.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[John-in-KC 311]

I really, really like Barry's "The Scoutmaster is the Keeper of the Flame" comment.

 

The Scoutmaster is the "older cousin" or the stepdad of every youth in the Troop. He has to be. He's their mentor, to use the overused buzzword. He's to know them, get in their heads, know what makes them tick, and be able to bring out the best for them.

 

The Scoutmaster establishes his bar along the way, setting standards. Brent and I debated that in a uniform thread, but Brent's right: As Scoutmaster, he gets to create the positive culture around Scouting that is a Troop. When he does that well, the Troop, and its youth, can reach for the stars.

 

The time to be inculcating standards in kids is not the Eagle SM conference. It's the hundreds of contact opportunities before, where carriage, deportment, a kind smile, and an observant eye combine to guide the kids subtly in the direction of good choices.

 

Are youth going to make bad calls? Heck yes. EagleSon is 20 now; last night at 1AM we were working through a bad call he'd made. The idea is to turn the bad call into something that gives growth and can be laughed about a couple years from now. That takes discernment and wisdom. Just simply cutting the hair on the Sword of Damocles takes a snip of a scissors (or tongue). By far, drawing growth from an incident is far more difficult of the the two.

 

The Scoutmaster keeps the flame. He, and he alone gets to make the first call on how high the bar is going to be.

[BrentAllen 10]

pack,

As of now, colleges give Eagle Scouts extra consideration on their applications. The military gives Eagle Scouts a bump in pay grade when they enlist. My guess is they do this because they are expecting something extra from these young men. Maybe a skill set, some knowledge, and most importantly an attitude and behavior that is based on the Scout Oath and Law. When the BSA keeps turning out Eagle Scouts that don't meet these expectations, these benefits will disappear, along with much of the respect the BSA and the Eagle badge have earned. So, yes, it does matter.

 

How to solve it? A Troop has 6 opportunities to make sure a Scout has met the minimums and has earned Eagle - at each rank. The problem is many Troops just gloss over the Scout Spirit requirement. As you stated, there are Troops that are pressured to carry non-active Scouts on their charter, for years. If a Troop caves in on that simple issue, how are they ever going to stand up to parents when they are told their son isn't living up to the Oath and Law? The Troop won't, and the Scout is advanced when he shouldn't be. This is like a snowball heading down hill, until the Scout has reached Eagle. All of a sudden, the Troop decides to make the Scout measure up to the Oath and Law (or a new SM takes over), and the SM gets blasted for denying the poor Scout his Eagle.

 

Well, the Troop dropped the ball 5 other times. They have to decide if they want to drop it a 6th, or not. Tough call, that was totally avoidable. I would have to weigh the price of awarding an Eagle I felt wasn't deserved against the damage this might do to the reputation of our Troop.

 

To solve it, you make the Scout Spirit requirement the most important one on the checklist. Address problems early and make sure the Scout understands why he isn't being signed off on Scout Spirit. Once he corrects his behavior and attitude, he advances. If he falls back to his old habits, you hold his feet to the fire again, but this time longer. Make him understand that if he doesn't change, he will never see Eagle.