Want your opinions about POR recognition

[Cubmaster Mike]

Question about recognition-

 

In our troop the patrol method does not work well. We have patrol leaders, but most troop meetings are group based and the only things the patrol leaders do is have the patrol line up behind them at the beginning and end of the meeting. Yes, there should be patrol meetings or a section of the troop meeting associated with patrols but there is not at this time. I recognize that this is something that needs to be fixed and have discussed it with some of the other leaders about making changes. Right now each patrol has a PL, a quartermaster and a scribe. The PL functions as described, the quartermaster stores gear in their garage (sometimes) and the scribe does well, nothing. And they all get POR credit after four months to advance. It needs to be fixed and I'll ask advice about that in a different post.

 

But my point is about the troop guides. We have two new boy patrols. These troop guides (two per patrol) come prepared every week to present a new boy program. They work very hard at it and spend the better part of a year getting these boys up to first class and learning their scout skills. I am the new boy program coordinator this year so I see the difference.

 

Most of the scouts decline to serve as troop guides because of the higher level of work and the lack of ability to participate in some of the troop games (they have to work on new boy skills instead). It can be more attractive to some when you can do nothing for four months in the other PORs and still advance. In addition, the position is not recognized as much as patrol leaders and the SPL.

 

It seems that there should be some kind of special recognition for these boy leaders who work longer and harder than most. Something that will help recognize the additional effort these scouts put in.

 

I'm looking for opinions and if you agree, ideas for recognition. What do you all think?

 

CMM

 

[DeanRx]

I have a very hard time justifying any type of 'reward' or 'recognition' for a task that is done as part of a rank requirement and also (if not more importantly) should be done because the scout is learning to be a leader and provide service for the greater good of the unit.

 

To dangle a reward will only teach the scouts that a job is only worth doing if one gets some type of payment for the service rendered. To me the POR portions of the rank requirements are there to encourage the patrol method, but more importantly to teach the scout in the POR the importance and satisfaction of doing something for others while expecting nothing in return.

 

I understand your difficulty, but the solution may not be the best if it undermines the intent of the POR requirement to being with.

 

To me, it would be like having a scout receive a plague from the local city government for park trail imporvements he organized as an Eagle project. The point is to lead and provide service. The point is NOT to get paid (in any form of recognition)for said leadership or service.

 

If you want to recognize that a given scout stood up and took on a POR that is usually hard to fill in the unit, then fine... ask the SM to make a point about what they did in their POR at the time the next rank is awarded as part of the rank advancement ceremony. However, I would be inclined to say no to any additional recognition (i.e. certificate, plague, seperate award) for a given POR.

 

POR's should be learning opportunities for the scout and those he leads, not a chance to gain special recognition from the unit.

[Eagle92]

My advice, and there are alot more knowledgabel people on here, would be to scrap completely the current troop meeting format, and either A) follow the Troop Program Helps model, or B) make the meetigns more patrol oriented in that they are doing stuff as patrols instead of groups.

 

Patrol scribes are the ones respeonsible for the record keeping of the patrol. And if memory serves, the only patrol level position that counts as advancementis the PL position. Only the TROOP LEVEL positions, i.e. Troop Quartermaster, Troop Scribe, etc. And an argument can be made that PLs are a troop level POR as they are part of the PLC.

 

Notice the APL POR doesn't count for advancement, a reaffirmation that patrol level jobs don't cut the mustard.

 

As for the new scout patrols not playing in the games, WHY NOT? they are part of the troop and need to be incorporated, otherwise you may lose some of them.

 

Has the SPL and PLs been through any training? If not, then you need to get them trained yesterday, as that should help. And once they are trained, they should serve as a cadre for training the next batch. I know this is a little different than what is taught at SM specific, but I've seen what happens when YOUTH train their successors, with the help of the SM. And it does work.

 

Good luck.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Kudu]

Cubmaster Mike writes:

 

But my point is about the troop guides. We have two new boy patrols.

 

The purpose of the Troop Guide POR is to take one of the most important jobs away from the Patrol Leaders and turn it into a separate Troop-level POR. It is called The Troop Method: It doubles the number of PORs and thereby solves the problem caused by requiring PORs for advancement.

 

The advantage of the Troop Method is that a less competent Scout can serve as Patrol Leader. Of course it means that you must ignore Baden-Powell's minimum standard of 300 feet between Patrols on multi-Patrol campouts (Before PORs were invented in 1965, the Patrol Method was defined by distance from adults, as in "Patrol Hikes" and "Patrol Overnights").

 

Cubmaster Mike writes:

 

In our troop the patrol method does not work well. We have patrol leaders, but most troop meetings are group based and the only things the patrol leaders do is have the patrol line up behind them at the beginning and end of the meeting.

 

The Old-School solution to your problem is to make sure that these Troop Guides (who appear to the the only Real Leaders in your Troop) become the Patrol Leaders of the New Scout Patrols rather than rotating the position through the new Scouts (which only reinforces incompetency in the name of "learning how to be a leader").

 

The best way to recognize their job is to follow Baden-Powell's advice: Allow their Patrols to camp further away from everyone else, with the actual distance up to 300 feet determined by their actual real-world competency.

 

That way everyone in the Troop sees the example of what Bill Hillcourt called a "Real Patrol." Your less competent Patrols can then attempt to follow the example of the New Scout Patrols so as to be allowed to camp further from everyone else according to their actual real-world competency.

 

Kudu

 

[Cubmaster Mike]

You raise some good points so far and I agree with you. I am also hesitant about the idea of recognizing someone for doing their job. Maybe instead some ideas to provide incentives to others to do a similar level.

 

Interesting point on patrol QM and scribes and their not qualifying as a POR. I'll have to look that up as to stop it will make very big waves as it has been used to date as a POR requirement.

 

This raises another question. How do you sprinkle PORs through a 65 member troop without changing every 2-3 months?

[Kudu]

Cubmaster Mike writes:

 

Interesting point on patrol QM and scribes and their not qualifying as a POR. I'll have to look that up as to stop it will make very big waves as it has been used to date as a POR requirement.

 

If you have any competent Patrol Quartermasters who actually pack the gear for every campout and then distribute it on the outing as needed, make them all "Troop Quartermasters" with a Patch and POR credit. A good Patrol Quartermaster is more important than an average Patrol Leader, and he certainly does more work than a Troop Bugler or a number of other bogus Troop PORs.

 

Remember that specific POR requirements for advancement were determined by the same White Stag anti-camping guys who also changed advancement so that it was possible to collect an Eagle Scout badge without ever attending a single campout.

 

That is not an exaggeration!

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

The POR term minimum from First Class to Star is 4 months and then from Star to Life and Life to Eagle the term is at least 6 months. So changing every 2-3 months is of no use. One could say that it's really not the Troop or the adults concern about POR's, thats up to the boys. Either get yourelf elected as a Patrol leader or SPL, or get youself appointed by the SPL as an ASPL or Quartermaster or perhaps Instructor. Letting the SPL pick his "cabinet" is a much better way of doing things than saddling him with names filling a space. It also has the benefit of following the program.

 

To get the youth doing their POR's. have they been oriented? Do they et evaluations on how they are doing, do they kno they must do the job to advance?

[Gags]

Regarding recognition for the TG's, I guess I agree with Dean. However, I was in the same TG/Instructor position once, and what I would have appreciated more than a pat on the back from the adults was a thank you from the scouts in my patrol.

 

If you assist with the new Scout program, is it possible to make a suggestion to the patrol members about maybe making some sort of patrol totem or other gift to present to the TG at the end of their program? Doing this in front of the entire troop (which sounds fairly large) may even trigger something in the other "POR in Name Only" scouts (please don't try to make an acronym out of that one!)to be a bit more involved.

 

And also as another poster mentioned - why have a troop game or patrol competition if you're excluding 2 whole patrols from the event?

 

--Gags