Smithgall Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 we have a dispute regarding who can sign off on swim requirements for 2nd class. as i read the 2nd class swin test there isnt a requirement that the test be administered by a certified lifeguard or even a swim coach. Again this is just the 2nd class requirement not a merit badge reqiurement. We have one boy that is lacking only this. In general can anyone (SM, ASM, Commiteee member) sign off on the requirements? My assumption (and you know what they say about that) is that unless its otherwise stated in the book then any official can sign off on the rank advancement requirements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcnphkr Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 As with other requirements, it is the SM's call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutldr Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Jet is correct. In my experience, most Scouts get this signed off when they complete their swim check at summer camp, although it can be completed any time. Once the SM sees the buddy tag, it's signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Crawford Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 We do the 2nd class and 1st class swimming and rescue requirements at a local pool under the supervision of troop leaders who are not certified lifeguards. Life Guards are on duty but not directly involved in the testing. We don't do this a lot as most of our scouts do these requirements at summer camp. Hal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenk Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 What they said. The actual sign-off is per the SM's policy so long as it does not add to the requirements. It does not need to be signed by a lifeguard or a swim coach - unless the SM demands it for some reason - though I personally think that would be overkill. Did the Scout demonstrate swimming requirement 7b or not? Don't add to the requirement by judging the Scout's swimming ability or speed - doing this using the dog paddle and splashing a lot is OK. They'll need those skills for the First Class requirement though. Did the Scout demonstrate the prescribed water rescue methods in 7c or not? Again, don't add to the requirement by adding a distance requirement to the throws. For First Class it is recommended that the victims be 30 feet away, but that isn't needed for Second Class. If not done at summer camp, my son's troop tends to do swim testing at a local park district pool with a trained life guard on duty and making sure we have the other planning/supervision/health forms/safe area to meet the Safe Swim Defense requirements. Don't forget that you need to have a health history (the BSA health form is suggested). A full doctor's physical isn't required - just a health history from a parent/guardian is sufficient. By the way, I don't usually think of a troop committee member signing off on rank requirements. Their job is to support the troop's program through their particular jobs (chair, treasurer, activity coordinator, advancement coordinator, ...). Because of some problems with poor ASM skills, I think my son's SM is starting to lean toward allowing only 'Trained' ASMs to sign off on requirements. Regardless, if the SM says its OK for a particular person (youth or adult leader) to do the sign-off on rank requirement ... its OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg98adams Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Hand book is SM (or those he wants to sign off for him). We try to keep as much within the Troop as possible. This one is easy in our Troop. I am an ASM and a YMCA/BSA cert. lifeguard. I also usually handle the aquatic stuff, if not done at camp. When I work with new Scouts, and cover the 2nd/1st class aquatic rank req.'s I also record the Scouts swim status on the "Summer Camp Form" along with my YMCA cert. #/signature. That way, all the SM needs is to hand in my signed copy. The SM has confidence in that I will not "hand-wave" a weak swimmer and taint the entire list. I also offer up free aquatic skills req.'s/Safe Swim/Safety Afloat/swim skill lessons (if they can't float or "dog paddle" they need real swim lessons) at the YMCA for other Troops in the area with the same procedure. I am pretty good working with weak swimmers, as I have taught all levels of swim lessons...but that's not what you asked. Like I said at the beginning, Scout Handbook = SM (or those the SM allows). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Yah, Smithgall, welcome to da forums! All da rest of the folks have given yeh the answer, eh? There shouldn't be any dispute in your program. What the SM says goes. The Scoutmaster and the people the scoutmaster designates (youth or adults) are the ones who can "sign off." So "any official" would be incorrect. Supposed to be that way even at camp, eh? Camp staff should not sign T-2-1 requirements. They're there to teach those things, but it's up to da SM and his designees to sign off. A SM can take the word of da Aquatics staff (and almost everybody does) but he's not obligated to. Beavah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithgall Posted May 27, 2009 Author Share Posted May 27, 2009 thanks for the responses. I guess i made my point a little blury but the answers were all good anyway. The dispute was not who can sign off specifically but rather if the swim test can be admin by a non lifeguard. The the comitee chair (former SM for this troop) did the swim test. Then When the boy brought his book to the SM, the SM told him that it had to have been conducted by a cert BSA lifeguard. So he coudlnt advance. As ASMm, i had not heard this rule and wondered why it couldnt be signed off. I worded my question poorly. But thaks for all the answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcnphkr Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 The the comitee chair (former SM for this troop) did the swim test. Then When the boy brought his book to the SM, the SM told him that it had to have been conducted by a cert BSA lifeguard. So he coudlnt advance. There is no BSA rule stating this. But the SM can limit the approved people to sign off on that requirement to BSA Lifeguards if he chooses. Why he would do that is a mystery. Does he have a plan on how this will be accomplished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 What they said. In this unit we often have boys who are on a swim team (school or private). We let the coach sign the book. Other times we have had one of the ASMs to do this at a public pool (with pool lifeguard present). The rest of the boys do it at summer camp usually, with one or two just not wanting to get in the water until they are about 14 years old. They catch up fast then. As long as Safe Swim is in compliance I see no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Yah, it may just be that the SM didn't think the CC should be doin' it without prior approval, but had to give the lad an excuse that didn't make the CC look bad. I reckon there's some merit in makin' sure the people doin' swim checks have some background and experience in aquatics, eh? Especially if the swim checks are bein' relied on as part of da safety for other aquatics events. No requirement for BSA Lifeguard, but nuthin' wrong with a unit or SM expecting that. That's what we require at camps for the swimmer classification, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtswestark Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Well I'm shocked the traditionalists haven't pounced all over this one! So I get to be the first - The 2nd class requirements are very basic and simple. There's no reason a patrol leader or older Scout can't teach and sign off on these any differently than they would for any other advancement. In our councils camp, they only administer the swimmers test at check in, and that is only one of the swimming requirements for rank. So if he passes the test, or at least meets the distance requirement for 2nd class at camp, then his patrol leader signs his book no adults needed. We go to open swim on election nights as we need to get out of the church while voting is going on. Great opportunity to make sure we get to a pool a few times a year to do this stuff. There the older Scouts get to teach and review the reaches and throws, and they have a blast! They even get to try and save their drowning SM as he bobs up and down in a hapless manner (try doing that for a half an hour!). We even recruited a kid to join our troop one night as he was there during open swim and saw all the fun they were having. Keep the adults away and let the boys do it. Jack Smith Scoutmaster, Troop 935 Buckeye Council, Ohio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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