Tenderfoot Rank - Patrol Name, Yell, Flag

[evry]

My son just crossed over into a troop where each new group of boys becomes their own patrol. That was strange for me, but they've been doing it for some years in the troop and it seems to be working.

 

The SPL met the new boys (5 of them) and told them that they would have to come up with a Patrol Name, Yell and Flag. The boys immediately decided on "Flaming Arrow" for the patrol name and were left to come up with a yell and a flag. Although the boys don't meet but once a week at the troop meeting (and then not everyone is there all the time), they came up with a yell (Flaming Arrow soaring high, Flaming Arrow light the sky) and one of the boys drew a flaming arrow on a piece of paper and they accepted that as the design of their flag.

 

The troop is going to have a COH and one of the boys had all the requirements of Tenderfoot completed except the Patrol Name, Yell and Flag. During this last weekend, during a troop activity, this young Scout went to an Assistant Scoutmaster and asked him to sign off on the requirement. My son who is in the same patrol was also with him. The AS asked them both what the yell was and they told him the yell. He then told them that they would need to make a patrol flag before he can sign off on the requirement. My son said that they already had a flag, at which point the AS showed the other patrols' flags that are made of leather or other material and cross hatched on branches etc., and asked them what material their patrol's flag is. My son (bless his heart) said "paper."

 

I realized where this was headed and I told the AS that the requirements are only to "describe" the patrol's flag and not to actually make one. He seemed to accept the reasoning and begrudginly signed off on the requirement. I don't have an issue with the patrol making a flag, but I don't believe it should be a stmbling block in getting the tenderfoot rank since it adds to the requirements.

 

I have the feeling that the signing off of this requirement will come up again during the young Scout's Scoutmaster Conference and/or BOR for his tenderfoot rank and I wanted to get other scouters' opinions. My son is not having his BOR yet, so the patrol will probably have made a flag by then, but I don't want some other young Scout being denied a rank because of local practice.

[gwd-scouter]

Hmmm. While the requirement does indeed say describe your patrol flag, I certainly take that to mean that if the boys are put in a new patrol, then they actually make a flag - out of cloth - and not just draw a design on paper. Now, if the guys go right into an existing patrol that has a flag, then they only need to describe the existing flag.

 

Actually, I've never heard anyone ever ask this before. Anyone else have this come up?

[Stosh]

You are correct. The boy only has to do what the book states, nothing more, nothing less.

 

By the way, if you check on e-bay they occasionally have the old patrol flags (bullet shaped, with red/black patrol symbol on them) Flaming Arrow is one of them. My boys have all gone to the cloth bullet shaped flags that tie onto their 6' walking staves. They are easy to handle, clean up in the washing machine and if one wishes to use iron-on transfers can add anything they want extra (troop #) if they so wish. My troop officers also carry "patrol" flags to identify themselve to the troop members as well, i.e. 3 green stripes (SPL) 2 1/2 green stripes (ASPL) and the PL's all carry the patrol flags. Yes they are all uniform, but there are a lot of other troops commenting on them because the boys drag them everywhere they go because it's not some cumbersome or delicate flag that can't take the beating that most boys dish out.

 

Stosh

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the campfire.

 

The concept you described in called in the Scouting literature the "New Scout Patrol." It's one way to help the new arrivals assimmilate.

 

STEP AWAY FROM YOUR SON. Let him start making his own mistakes and miscues It's not a bad thing for the Flaming Arrows to make their own first patrol flag ... then all are describing the same thing. (that said, the requirement IS to DESCRIBE it )

 

My wonder is why the ASM is signing off on something like this, and not the Troop Guide designated to help your sons' sterling fellows...

 

May I suggest "This is Scouting" (online training), Troop Committee Challenge (online) and Scoutmaster Specific trainings for you (not online), so you will master our program?(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[evry]

Unfortunately, there is no Troop Guide designated to assist the new Scouts and the troop's policy is for the ASM or SM to sign off on all rank requirements. One troop leader actually said that the ASM or SM must also be "Trained" to sign off. Some of the new Scouts are not even getting their Scout Badge at the next COH since they don't know that they have to go to the SM or an ASM to get the requirements checked off.

[Eagle92]

if memory serves, sorry I don't have the most current HB in my possession, but AOL recipeints automatically get Scout as they have met the entry requirements for AOL. You may want to suggest your son review the fine print at the bottom of the page for the joining requirements.

 

Also if there is no troop guide, then why isn't the SPL or another senior YOUTH member signing off. This policy of adults only worries me, unless it is a brand new unit. In every unit I've been affilaited with, the senior youth sign off on T-2-1 requirements. In fact the only units I've ever encountered adults signing off on all rank advancement have been new units that don't have Star and above scouts in them. And even then, once they do get Star and above, they do have youth signing off.

 

One of the things that has changed in recent years is that the scouts get recognized ASAP with the rank they earn. Grant you Scout is not technically a rank, but as AOL recipients, they should have received Scout either at the Crossover Ceremony, or a troop investiture ceremony, as troop tradition holds. they shouldn't have to wait months for a COH.

 

Also welcome to the forum. Yep get trained, take a deep breath, step back form your son, and allow your son some freedom. Very hard to do, especially for former CS leaders, but it is the youth's chance to learn, grow, and shine.

 

Good luck and may your son have years of great Scouting adventure ahead.

[Narraticong]

..."describe your pattrol flag". This patrol did not have a FLAG. They had a design of what they would like their flag to look like if they ever got around to actually making a flag.

 

Come on guys, I agree with no more or less than what the requirement says, but that is just plain wrong. If it is a new Scout patrol with no flag, they need to make one. That is part of establishing their identity. Tenderfoot is all about learning the "Scouting Way".

 

For anyone, adult or youth leader, to sign off on that requirement before it is completed is just cheating the Scout. We all know in our hearts what the requirement intends. Just do it.

 

As I have mentioned in other threads, we are much to eager to skirt rules just to further our own ambitions. Why on earth would we need to rush a brand new Scout through Tenderfoot? Doesn't it make more sense to make him take his time and do things right? Isn't that a better lesson on how to live his life?

 

Unless, of course, you think he might want to someday be a member of Congress?

 

 

[Narraticong]

A good example of doing things the right way involves GreenBar Bill Hillcourt. When Bill was coming up with ideas on how a troop or patrol should operate, he could have just put the ideas on paper and said, "Here's how you do it boys".

 

Instead he made sure his ideas worked befoer he put them out for use. He became Scoutmaster of Troop 1 in Menham, NJ. For nearly 20 years, Bill made sure every idea was tested in the field before it became part of the program.

 

No shortcuts. Learn to do things right, even if it takes longer than you would like.

[evry]

Narraticong,

 

As I stated, I don't have a problem with having the patrol "make" a patrol flag, but I don't think that it should be an additional requirement for Tenderfoot. "Describe" means describe. If you were asked to describe the American flag, you would say it has 13 stripes (7 red and 6 white) and on the top left corner, it has a blue field with 50 stars on it. You would not have to actually reproduce the flag and state what material it is made of.

 

I've looked at the other patrol flags in the troop, and without any hesitation, I could assert that they were not made by 11 year olds all by themselves. They are made of leather tied very neatly with leather strips to wooden staves that are joined together with timber hitch lashings. I wonder what Scout got these requirements signed off for 1st Class! Thanks Dad!

 

This new patrol has already done more by themselves without any assistance (or counsel for that matter) by a Troop Guide or an ASM and to require them to actually make a flag in order to meet the requirements would only lead to frustration. Again, once they have collectively agreed on the flag design and can describe it, they have fulfilled the requirements. They can then ask for the assistance they need to make a flag.

[asm 411]

It strikes me as odd that the issue here is about the requirement itself.

 

I think if I were in this position I may have explained to the Scouts that longer their patrols stays together the better it reflects on them.

 

(Assuming no troop guide or other Scout to help them) I would explain that a paper flag is a good start but a patrol needs a flag that can withstand weather and camping. Ask them what materials they think would to achieve the purpose. Then help them distribute the list of materials among the members.

 

One last point, encourage them to have it done before the next meeting. Encourage patrol activities outside the weekly meetings and monthly camp outs.

 

As for signing off on the requirement, sign it. They described what they flag looks like. Helping bound them as patrol members is well worth it.

[FScouter]

Well, you know what will happen. Every boy in the patrol will "describe" the concept drawing of a flag, they'll all be Tenderfoot rank, and the patrol will have no flag. Something's missing. But at least no one has "added" to the requirement!

[gcnphkr]

They've had at least a month since becoming scouts. How hard it is to get a piece of cloth, a marker and and a stick? Doesn't this patrol at least have an ASM advising them or are they left to sink or swim on their own? Granted, it should be a Troop Guide helping them, but if no TG then it falls on the ASM to point them in the direction of success.

[gwd-scouter]

"...to require them to actually make a flag in order to meet the requirements would only lead to frustration."

 

Why? We have two new scout patrols. A couple of weeks ago they designed their flags - each guy wrote out on paper what he thought was a good idea and the Scouts picked which they liked best. Last week they were given cloth, markers, and paint and made their flags. Sure looked like they were having a good time. Along the way they learned a bit about sharing ideas and teamwork. Plus, what a bonus, they'll have an actual flag to bring to the upcoming Council Exporee.

 

I think we do a great disservice to our Scouts when we read the requirements like lawyers.

[Stosh]

I don't think anyone is saying the NSP doesn't need a patrol flag, but there is a difference between making a patrol flag and describing it. For advancement, no one is required to make a patrol flag, just describe it.

 

Having said that, it's important that the NSP has an actual flag. None of my boys have made their flags, they have all requested either buying one or having one made by someone after they have picked out the pattern. The patrols have chosen to use a standard size to fit the troop's 6' walking stick and after selecting the emblem on it has it made with an iron-on transfer.

 

Thus all my boys get "credit" for the requirement but none of them have ever actually made a flag. They are all uniform, look nice and the boys like them and protect them with a passion.

 

Most of this flies in the face of contemporary wisdom of BSA, but this is what the boys have chosen to do and there's nothing in the rules that forbids or discourages it.

 

While we use the patrol-method, it is nice to look down the line of boys at the flag ceremony and see neat, uniform flags for each of the patrols. It builds a little ownership in the troop even when we use the patrol-method and after all the compliments the boys have received for their combined efforts, the boy-led part will insure that practice continue for the troop.

 

When the boys establish camp, it's nice to know that the uniform size of the patrol flag sets them apart from the caucaphony of different flags marking the patrol sites. With my aging eyes, I can't always tell which patrol it may be, but from the size and style, I know it's one of mine.

 

Stosh

[Mrw1]

All of our patrols have managed to show up with some sort of flag made out of some sort of fabric, even the new guys This should hardly be construed as adding to the requirements. Stop babying the kids!

 

The boys cannot describe a flag that does not actully exist and honestly be completing the requirement. One of our patrols has a blank flag that originially said "FLAG" but the letter have come off. Simple, but hey have it.

 

As for the poster who stated tha AOL boys automatically get Scout because it is all covered in the AOL requirements, no, not true.

 

They should be able to recite it all and earn it their first meeting or two as Scouts, but it is not automatically assumed.