First Eagle BOR

[gcnphkr]

I sat on my first Eagle BORs tonight. They are conducted by the district. Two of my scouts were there for theirs and they were short staffed so I sat in on three boards. The first two were outstanding young men and it was a pleasure to talk with them.

 

When we were done we were asked if we could do one more. We said, "Sure". We looked over the application, project write up and application. The packet was disorganized, water stains on the application and it was clear that the scout used a spell checker but had not proof read his work. Okay, something to mention to him. The project was a weak food and toy drive for a shelter. Useful? I guess, but not much leadership.

 

We went out to call him in and were told that he had just come from a soccer game (mind you this is about an hour after we started) and he was waiting for his mom to go get his uniform so that he could change. We wait about fifteen minutes for him to come in a be introduced. He gives me an anemic right-handed hand shake. Muddles his way through the Oath and Law and then plops himself down in the chair. Hands stuffed into his pockets and slouched down about as far as he can go without falling off. Ten painful minutes latter we ask him to step outside. The three of us set there in awkward silence for a moment. The board chair finally asks, "So what do you think?" Mind you, I've never sat on a board before tonight. I'm a SM, I don't do boards. I answered him, "If we allow him to be an Eagle Scout then why do we even bother with this?" Neither of the other board members were happy but I was told, "He completed the requirements so we have to pass him". The chair said, "He could have been better but I've seen worse". We had him come back in for a little chat about how he came across not caring about the Eagle and that with it was an expectation that he be an example as an Eagle Scout. We sent him out again and signed his paperwork, called him in with his parents and congratulated him on his Eagle.

 

Does this happen often? This scout was LDS, and while I don't have a very high opinion of many LDS scouts I found this shocking. I cannot imagine a traditional troop presenting such a scout for his board. I felt like I needed a shower and that the other two scouts' and my son's Eagle were cheapened tonight. I'm not sure what I could do, but I'm not sure I want to ever sit on another board again. If this is typical of LDS scouts then there needs to be an asterisk beside their Eagles.

[FireKat]

Sorry it was a bit rough for your first time on an Eagle Board. I usually look forward to them and enjoy talking with the boys. I have sat on a fair amount of boards and oly reciently been fased with some of what you describe from LDS Eagles. One not long ago was a bit sad. No SM came with the boy to do introductions. No one had taught him much about unifoming. He had his sash over the wrong shoulder. It was not the boy's fault but someting in that unit's program. It seems like some have good adult leadership while others have almost none. The LDS program is different than the regular program but I do not know the difference. I feel a bit uncomfortable in trying to evaluate these scouts. We (advancement people) would like something done to help us in the evaluation of these boys. It is just my opinion but I feel poor uniforming an poor presentation is a lacking in scout spirit. If this is not taught in the program by the adults how can we fault the boy? But how can we say that they are truly Eagle stuff? I don't know. I hope someone can answer it before I have to face it again.

[scoutldr]

"He completed the requirements so we have to pass him".

-Absolutely not true. The decision must be unanimous. The mistake made was continuing with the EBOR when it was clear the scout was not prepared. Being an hour and 15 minutes late for your own Eagle board is unacceptable.

 

This has nothing to do with LDS/non LDS. The BSA requirements and standards are the same. An Eagle Scout is an Eagle Scout and the badge is now a little more tarnished for the rest of us.

[GKlose]

I sat in on my first Eagle BoR a little over a week ago, and I'm glad we were not put in this same position. Although I didn't know the candidate well (he's a senior in high school, and between work, school, his cross-country season, getting college applications ready, his participation in the church music ministry and youth program, and his other volunteer work), there isn't anything about him that wasn't a slam dunk. In fact, if anything at all, I don't think the candidate realized how great of a job he has done with his life. I was honored to be a part of the board.

 

In a slightly humorous moment (to me), during our few moments of "deliberation" we asked the district representative if anyone ever fails a board. He said, "not really, but we've often asked candidates to work on something and then come back to the board after some amount of time." So I said, "so that means we could ask this guy to come back tomorrow?". Everyone laughed, except the district rep, who said "I'd never do that to him." I don't think he had much of a sense of humor about Eagle boards.

 

Guy

[Crew21_Adv]

 

jet526 and Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

I see two possibly three different topics here.

 

First topic.

The Candidate was not ready. Was he a bad youth? It doesn't sound so. Was he Eagle quality? Maybe not yet.

 

But maybe a month from now, his performance may be improved. That is up to the EBOR to determine.

 

Definitely, he should not have been compared against other candidates, it should not appear to be an election vote. He should be compared against the National requirements and district expectations though, did he complete all requirements. Yes. Though maybe not highly exceeded, he met the minimum. Well that is satisfactory. Did he meet the EBOR minimum? It sound like he did not, but the vote passed him anyway.

 

Out of a few Eagle Scouts that my Troop has forwarded to an EBOR. We had one young man roll his eyes and continued to exhale as the committee discussed his project, specifically addressing safety. Months later when he brought his application thru, it was folded, bent and crumpled up in his hip pocket. While we reminded him this is probably not the best way to take care of an Eagle Scout Rank Application, it barely phased him. He personally would swing back and forth between being a good kid and being a rotten kid. No matter how much encouragement and support the committee advised him, he thought he could take on the world alone.

 

 

Next topic. LDS Scouting. (and I expect a few shots back at me for this) I've got a few buddies that are LDS Scouters, most somewhat agree. There are pro's and con's there. The LDS Scouting leaders is called to that duty. Some leaders love it, they are seriously excited when they have been called to be Scouting leaders. While other LDS gentlemen, unfortunately, are less than enthusiastic and are just called to become Scout leaders.

 

Some LDS Troops never see the indoors of a building. They are constantly outdoors, constantly camping, constantly hiking, Scouting every day. Unfortunately, Other LDS Troops never see the outdoors; their ranks, merit badges, and BOR are just a paper drill.

 

The LDS leadership has regularly addressed Scouting, reminding their called leaders that it is an LDS program and to handle it correctly. There are some great Scouts and Scout Leaders examples within their denomination. But a few "called leaders" fail to follow that example and use the Wilson theory to occupy their Scouts.

 

In this candidates case, I would say the youth failed to take it seriously (he failed to look the part, or attempt to act the part) and also failed leadership, whom probably made no attempt to prepare him for an EBOR.

 

So, while this young candidate was not a shining example. His LDS troop may be faulty, but not the entire LDS Scouting program.

 

My bottom line about this topic. I do backflips when I meet a new Scouting friend from the LDS church that enjoys Scouting and is highly enthusiastic about becoming a Scout leader. I am slightly disappointed when I've visited a LDS troop, and could not tell if they were a basketball team or a Scout troop. (not always, but its happened a few times)

 

My third issue. Similar to a few LDS called leaders becoming apathetic toward Scouting, the rest of Scouting leadership is a volunteer position. Within other Troops, some volunteer troop leaders also become apathetic. And for the Scouts whom are able to pass thru a disorganized Troop, they too may not be the best or shining example of an Eagle Scout candidate.

 

So.... Some personal responsibility on the candidate, and maybe more on the failed leadership. No matter if they are LDS, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, or other major religion chartered, or just community based. The failed leadership may have also let the candidate down.

 

Hopefully our fellow readers can take my comments with a grain of salt. I'm sure that people that blog about Scouting have the Scout's best interest at heart; but when they see a failed leadership or disorganized troop at camp, maybe they can coach the other leadership and better prepare ours and their Scouts to become Eagle Scouts and even more future great American citizens.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[gcnphkr]

Thank you.

 

Crew21_Adv:

It is likely that part of my reaction was because of the contrast between the candidates. If he had been first I might not have had the same reaction. Of course being late and making us wait for him to get dressed didn't help. I did find his "Public Spectator" merit badge amusing. I'm guessing he was a good kid, but unprepared. Perhaps telling him to come back next month with a list of corrections would have been the thing to do, it certainly would have been educational for him.

 

I don't mean to speak ill of all LDS scouts and scouters. Some of the best and most dedicated scouters I know are LDS. I'm sure that many of the fine scouts I've met are LDS, it is not like they wear an "I'm LDS badge". (Okay, the orange Varsity loops are a bit of a give away). And it is shameful that the LDS do the heavy lifting for FOS. But there are those units out there that when you see them you say to yourself "Must be an LDS unit", and that is sad. A traditional troop would not last long. I've been in so many training sessions were the answer to "Why are you in scouting?" is "Because my bishop made me" that being a scouting evangelist becomes a major role for the instructor.

[ChiefThundercloud]

The very first Eagle Board on which I sat, denied the Scout his advancement. He was, similar to your example, a Scout who clearly didn't care about the rank. He had not been an active Scout for about 3 years. His mother pushed him to complete everything at the last minute. His circumstance was complicated in that he was already 18 years old, so the appeal process was limited.

 

I have been on four Eagle Boards where the Scout was not awarded the rank. Each time, the Scout hadn't shown that he was worthy of the rank (one Scout came without his uniform - we gave him until we finished the other Eagle Boards that day to return in full Class A uniform).

 

There's a well-repsected Eagle Scout ASM in my Troop who has a view on this situation. He tells my Scouts and parents,

"Not everyone will become an Eagle. The Scout that demonstrates that he wants that rank shows the difference between a Life Scout and an Eagle."

[scoutldr]

The question should not be "how bad do you want it", but rather "how well do you live it?"

[click23]

A few of the comments here have really pushed my buttons:

 

""He completed the requirements so we have to pass him". -Absolutely not true." While I agree with what you say about him not being prepared. The EBOR should have explained that he missed his appointment and he need to rescheduled. But how can a EBOR fail a scout who has compleeted all of the requirements

 

"the Scout hadn't shown that he was worthy of the rank" If you are implying anything other than the scout did not complete the requirements, the EBOR was wrong.

 

"Not everyone will become an Eagle. The Scout that demonstrates that he wants that rank shows the difference between a Life Scout and an Eagle." Last time I checked the requirements, and it mentions nothing of the sort.

 

"the Scout hadn't shown that he was worthy of the rank" Again, this is not part of the requirements.

 

 

Here are a few points from "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures"

 

"an Eagle Scout candidate may only have one board of review. All steps beyond an initial board of review fall under the appeals process"

 

"No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements."

 

"If a positive, unanimous decision is not reached, then two possibilities exist:

 

1. If the Scouts 18th birthday is not imminent and the board of review feels the Scout needs to improve in certain areas within a defined time frame, the board of review may adjourn and then reconvene at a later date and continue the review of the Scout.

 

2. If the vote was final, the boy must be informed of his options for appealing the decision and the proper process for an appeal"

 

 

jet526, I can understand your disappointment in the outcome of the EBOR, I firmly believe that the outcome was correct.

 

 

(This message has been edited by click23)

[vancescouting]

Our Eagle Board Chairman resigned rather than fight the "EBOR is only a formality-everyone passes" mentality. Our district has boys coming for EBOR who have NOT lived the Eagle path. Gotten caught having sex at a scout function, selling drugs at school and other equally non-scout like behavior. I personally know one of these boys, he transferred from my son's troop. What can be done? I really feel that if these boys and others like them "earn" Eagle that it is belittling the title Eagle Scout. Being an Eagle Scout is not just a "scout thing"

[click23]

The time to address these things is immediately, not at a BOR. As for "caught having sex at a scout function, selling drugs at school,..." these are situations when the scoutmaster, committee chair, COR, and the parents of said troop need to sit down and discuss the scouts' future in the troop; dismissal, suspension, or other actions. But once the scoutmaster signs off on scout spirit, the boy has met the requirements.

 

Here is the definition of scout spirit from national:

 

"Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his daily life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his daily life."

 

Every time a boy is failed for not being "worthy", it is because the adults in the unit have failed him.

[John-in-KC]

It's a tough call.

 

On one hand, take an at-risk young man and keep working with him, trying to convince him that living the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life matters. You may get to the point where a marginal candidate presents himself for Eagle.

 

OTOH, there comes a point where the Scoutmaster, or perhaps the COR, decides a young man is such a distubance within the Troop that his termination from the Troop is the better of several bad options.

 

You never can make these decisions easily, lightly, nor without knowing the kid on the ground.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jet, what you described is one reason my district does unit level EBOR with a District Guest. When the youth, with his SM, schedules the event, he's deconflicted the other things in his life. I see your comments otherwise, and I'm not sure how I'd have reacted if I had sat this board. I know one thing: If he was not there, I'd have immediately made a motion to defer the EBOR.

 

"Must be present to earn."

[gcnphkr]

I'd prefer unit level EBOR. For one, 9 of the Eagles in the district this year are from my troop. We should have 3 more in December, if they finish their paperwork and get with me for their SMC. So unit EBORs would be more convenient personally, not that I mind giving up a night a month for this.

 

But more importantly, one scout's 18th birthday was 89 days after the District EBOR, making him 2 days short for his palm. His palm was allowed because the date of the the EBOR was beyond his control. If it had been held at the unit level we would have conducted it earlier and there would not have been an issue at all.

 

It also provides an opportunity for feedback to the unit. This scout was only represented by his parents. If it had been at the unit level we could have talked to the unit leader and encouraged him to prepare his scouts better for the board. Thinking back, there was nothing wrong with this scout that adequate preparation would not have handled. It was very much like a kid going to his first job interview with no coaching.