Two Deep vs. Merit Badges

[Aquila 10]

"Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings."

 

What constitutes a "trip" or "outing"? Obviously, campouts and overnighters, but what about Merit Badge activities?

 

"A Scout must have a buddy with him at each meeting with a merit badge counselor. A Scout''s buddy could be another Scout, or be a parent or guardian, brother or sister, relative or friend."

 

If I''m running merit badge required hikes for the Hiking badge where the kids are dropped off at the trailhead, is that an outing or is that a merit badge session? Can someone please provide me with clarification?

 

It matters. Have any idea how difficult it is to find adults willing to hike ten miles?

[insanescouter 10]

Personally I would not want to lead a 10 mile hike unless there were at least 2 adults. Regardless if Troop activity or merit badge. If you take the Scouts, siblings, what ever out there by yourself and some one trips over a root and breaks a leg, or what ever.. then what ...

 

Now on the flip side it may also be helpful if we knew, how many Scouts, siblings, etc were going, how many over 18 were going, etc.

 

Also I would like to also ask the group ... 10 mile hike even if for a MB session would this need a tour permit ....

 

I dont know if I really had any answers ... but hope my wacky 2 cents helped some...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[Aquila 10]

Thanks, Scott. It''s 6-8 Scouts, mostly in the 14-16 range, ranging from Star to Tenderfoot. We did an urban hike earlier this week that was great!

 

My understanding (please correct me if I''m wrong) is that we need a trip report if there''s driving involved. We meet at the trailheads.

[insanescouter 10]

technically you need a tour permit if its over night, water is involved ... and one other case maybe shooting dont remember for sure ... however most I have talked to suggest any time you do something away from your normal meeting location you should have one... but yet if you were meeting at say a house to work on a citizenship MB you wouldn''t need one ... so I am not sure.. the reason i would say one should be filed is the nature of going into the backcountry, that what if something happens ... what am I as the adult personally liable for ... type questions ...

 

I would still suggest a 2nd adult, even if one is required ... it is always better safe then sorry in this do I dare say it sue happy country. (a bit of useless facts I heard and will most likely screw up but will be close enough for my point ... something like 75% of all the lawyers in the world are in the USA, and around 85% of all law suites occur in the USA) We once had a lawyer come to our roundtable who basically said follow the sweet 16 in the guide to safe scouting and BSA will help you and even supply you a lawyer, if you don''t you are on your own ... how true this is I don''t know ... but hey like I said better safe then sorry...

 

Please don''t turn this into a legal thread, or one about sueing, or what ever ... start a new thread for that ...

 

I still don''t think I have answered your orginal question ... I am still hoping some others add to my 2 cents...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

[Lisabob 13]

I''m not sure there is a hard and fast rule here, because some MB activities are pretty simple. I don''t need two deep leadership to work with a scout on the reading merit badge at the library, you know?

 

But I''m in agreement with insanescouter, that a 10 mile hike is a situation where 2 deep leadership makes a lot of sense for many reasons. Are you sure there''s no other adult in the troop who would go along?

 

 

[Gunny2862 11]

Aquila, don''t forget that you may, for an activity where you can''t get help from your own troop, try:

Asking neighboring troops if they would help or like to combine on the trip.

 

If you want to let us know where you are and when you are planning to go - one of us might be able to pony up for you - it might cost you letting us bringing along a couple of our boys but...

 

Depending on the location of the trailhead and the trail in question I would also do a tour permit. The fact that you are meeting there and not driving is a consideration but I would rather file one for a hike due to the number of possible "freak" things that could go wrong. I would think the MB counselor and/or the SM or any ASM or any YPT''d parent could provide the two deep.

 

I would definitely want at least two-deep for this, and for most things.

[Oak Tree 15]

I''ve done a number of hikes for the Hiking merit badge with two adults and two boys, and I''d never considered filing a tour permit. I''m quite comfortable with not needing one.

 

As for two-deep, I think that would depend on a bunch of things, including how many boys, how old they are, how remote the trail is, how many other people are on the trail, how the cell phone coverage is, etc. I do think it''s a good idea to have two adults, but not required. One rule of thumb on when I''d definitely want two adults is whether the boys would fit into your car. If something happened (e.g. you have to drive a boy to the emergency room), you''d want to be able to bring the other boys with you, or leave an adult with them.

[John-in-KC 311]

NO ONE ON ONE CONTACT, except for parent and own child. That''s a fundamental rule of YP. Protects the youth, protects the grown-up too.

 

So you''re planning a 10 mile course for the youth. Have you thought of route design so they almost cannot get lost? Have you thought of how well trained they are on map and compass work? With google maps and topozone, I have far better tools to look at a piece of trail than I ever did with a single 1:62,500 quad in the Low Sierra.

 

If you''re going to hike with them, the ideal option is 4 adults: Two can peel off to support any emergency, and the activity continues.

 

One option in designing the 10 milers is to do an "out-and-back" 5 mile course.

[Beavah 205]

If you''''re going to hike with them, the ideal option is 4 adults: Two can peel off to support any emergency, and the activity continues.

 

Hefalumps and woozles! Can''t say I agree with KC here on the 4-adult minimum. Too many adults oft as not spoils the youth learnin'' experience. And I can''t imagine ever having the hike continue leaving an injured/emergency behind. Yeh want all hands on deck for an emergency. Those 14 year olds are going to be important for getting supplies or helping with a carry-out. Remember, no one-on-one is for youth protection. Two deep is for safety. It is OK when you have an emergency to split the two adults. That''s why there are two of ''em, eh?

 

Never met a council yet that expected a tour permit for a MB session. If you''re counseling kids from multiple troops, I wonder which CC you''re supposed to get to sign .

 

But back to the question:

 

Be smart, Aquila. Consider the kids and the trail and the weather and make the call. I would think about "What happens if I (the adult) get hurt?" Twist an ankle, have a heart attack? Do you want the kids to be on their own dealing with that, unlikely as it might be? If a kid is hurt, are you certain that you''ve got good cell coverage or two strong kids who can be sent for help while you stay with the injured boy?

 

On the flipside, there isn't any requirement that an adult has to be along at all. Boys are free to do their hikes on their own. Again, are the kids ready for that? Gotta use your judgment.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[acco40 95]

Two deep adult leadership is not required for all trips and outings. You''ve got to love the BSA. Yes, the quote by Aquila is accurate but because the BSA is not in the specification business (they would never pass muster in the commercial world) the next sentence in the G2SS is: "There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required."

 

Merit badge meetings are not troop outings. Therefore, no two-deep adult leadership is required. Is it desired? Different question and the answer depends on the adult(s), youth, activity, location and many other variables. What is true as John-in-KC stated is no one on one contact with youth (unless you are their guardian).

 

As for a trip report, you may or may not include the "travel" as part of the event. I don''t consider the travel to and from our homes and the CO part of the troop meeting. The transportation to troop meetings is a parental responsibility not the troops. Sometimes (rarely) that is true for our monthly outings. Usually, for merit badge sessions, transportation is the responsibility of the parents/Scouts - not the counselor so no tour permit is required.

[BrotherhoodWWW 10]

IMHO if one adult is there then there should be two, although if there are at least two scouts present then there should not be any one on one contact. If it a Troop outing where the troop is planning and arranging the transportaion then a trip permit may be required depending on local custom.

 

FWIW I think hikes for hiking merit badge should be scout only hikes and if the scouts needing the credit are not old enough they should find an older scout to accompany them, or put aside this merit badge until they are older. There are plenty other mertit badges to choose from. Granted that there are probabaly some places where this simply would not be safe. I think the youth will get the most out of the merit badge requirements when they are done in the smallest of numbers so that each participant plays a large part of the planning process. A workable alternative is for a patrol to work on the badge together with each boy planning each hike and the Patrol choosing the best one each time.

 

Although not even advised then I did most of my hikes for hiking merit badge solo, but that was back around 1980, and I was in High School. In the same time frame I was a long distance runner and would train solo in the off seasons, plus I fished alone. Being self relient was SOP for me.

[John-in-KC 311]

FWIW,

 

My hikes for hiking MB, back in the day, came from training hikes for the Silver Knapsack (Western LA Council) and the John Muir (Pacific Crest) trails, and the long one came from one of the days on the trail itself.

 

We had adults, but they tended to hike in a different gaggle than the youth.

 

B can be right about disagreeing. If you meet with the MBC a couple of times before the hike, and lay down the hike plan to him, then maybe you can do without any adults other than pickup and dropoff support.

 

There is more than one way to slice this pie; just don''t get 1/1.

 

BTW, our District Commish and Advancement Chair say meetings in a public restaurant are appropriate and provide the cover the youth need.