Life to Eagle/What would you do?

[MollieDuke]

We have two boys that are working on finishing MBs and have made NO effort on Eagle Projects, but I am wondering this using these two as examples:

 

Boy ONE: Works to help parents pay bills right now, but must work on meeting nights. Does MBs with counselors, and can "discuss" when it says "discuss" will have "written" stuff and not "printed off internet". Cannot attend many functions due to family circumstances right now. IF (and that's a big IF), he decides to try an Eagle project soon, what would your take be on the "active" part? I personally feel that since he's still plugging away at it with the MBs and he's not just ditching meetings, that he should be allowed if he's willing and able to take on the extra task.

 

Boy TWO: Doesn't work or do any school activities outside of school time. Says he "forgets" meetings even though they've been on the same date/time for nearly 20 years and certainly have not changed during his time in the troop. On recent MBs, he cannot "discuss" any topics with counselor so was sent home to "study up" for discussion, and was told that "printing off the internet" is equal to plagerism and "write a....." must be in HIS OWN WORDS or no go--haven't seen him except two or three times in 7 months and no further work has been done on MBs in 7 months......This child is nearly 18. IF, and again big IF, he tries for an Eagle project, should this kid be considered "active" for Eagle advancement purposes? My thoughts are yes and no due to occasional attendance of meetings. There has been no advancement at all, no effort made to attend meetings even with frequent (every 2 weeks) contact with him, and he often "forgets" meetings, or "must study my (insert subject here)" even though with one subject, the committee found he's not even taking that subject, so question of trustworthiness arose too.

 

The question hasn't come up with these boys yet, but the committee and SM, all fairly new to all this have discussed it, so we thought we'd post here to see if anyone here could enlighten us with an experience you've had. We've decided to question the DE after the holidays also, but sometimes personal experiences are very enlightening as well.

 

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment.

[molscouter]

One question, where are these two re. Position of Responsibility? If they have fulfilled that, then likely they would have had to been active for at least one six-month period since earning their Life rank. If they haven't the point is moot. The requirement says be active for six months since becoming a Life Scout; this does not have to be the last six months prior to applying for Eagle.

[SWScouter]

One way to look at it is if the scout is doing his best (On my honor I will do my best...). From what you wrote it appears the first scout is doing his best to be active in scouting but his home/work situation gets in the way a lot. The second scout doesn't appear to be doing his best to be active at all and is making up excuses.

 

Molscouter makes another very valid point. If the scouts have completed the POR requirement, then by default, I believe they have also completed the tenure requirement.

 

For these kinds of questions, you should be able to approach your Unit Commissioner or the District Advancement Chairman, not the District Executive.

 

Happy Thanksgiving,

SWScouter

[Oak Tree]

I'd let them both go ahead and try an Eagle project if they want to. To be honest, it's hard to imagine the second boy wanting to do that. My actual answer would depend on more of the situation - how long has it been since they earned Life and what all have they done in that time? But my default option would not be to stand in their way.

 

Oak Tree

[jr56]

I would say, let them try it. If they have been active at some point for 6 months since earning their Life, then they have fulfilled that requirement.

[FScouter]

The requirement is Be active in your troop and patrol for at least six months as a Life Scout. Focus more on how the boy is active in his troop and patrol and less on his personal life and how he completes merit badges. A boy is not exempt from being active because he has family commitments.

 

An Eagle project is an endeavor the boy decides he will pursue, or not. Id encourage them both to pursue the Eagle rank. The project is not something anyone decides to allow or not allow based on any performance or lack thereof. The only requirement is that the boy must be a Life Scout.

[MollieDuke]

I looked up how long these boys have been Life. Boy ONE: 1 year 5 weeks. Boy TWO: nearly 2 years. Now, Boy ONE: PoR was Chaplain's Aide, but he didn't finish the 6 months before he was working according to his attendance records. He's attended few activities since then. (Actually, I've found only two so far) Boy TWO: Was elected SPL, however, according to his attendance records, he attended less than half of the 6 month period and seems to have been replaced due to lack of attendance from what I can see, and a new one elected close to his 6 month mark. So I assume this would qualify even though he didn't attend but half the meetings/outings/activities?

 

Chaplain's Aide was never replaced, so I assume Boy ONE is still this position, although, I can't be certain. I've inherited records that I"m still perusing and trying to make sense of, so I'm only going by their troop records. I"m trying to put them into troop master at this time, so I can see it more clearly.

 

Personally, I doubt if either boy will try to attain Eagle (which is rather sad since they are so close). Boy ONE has a lot of family obligations right now, so it's really hard on them. Boy TWO doesn't seem very interested, although, his father certainly is (although his father doesn't bring him to meetings or activities and such...just sits around once in awhile and complains that son isn't getting Eagle yet).

 

It's just a learning exercise at this point for those of us who are new. Sort of a "what if" exercise. I do think this has helped us along quite a bit already which I appreciate, so keep it coming if there are any more thoughts.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I'd count the time as a POR unless you have actively counseled them that they are not meeting the expectations of the position. The best way to do that is to make sure you agree at the beginning of the term on what the expectations are for serving actively in the position. And then check up on it every so often.

 

If the boy thinks he has the position, and no one has told him he's not doing it well enough, I think it would be fair for him to think that he's met the requirement.

 

The best way to avoid confrontations is to make sure expectations are set correctly up front.

 

Oak Tree

[John-in-KC]

What Oak Tree just said.

 

Look. The job is not done until the paperwork is complete. If the Scoutmaster failed to have a SM conference about how well the SPL was doing his job, ... shame on us SCOUTERS.

 

If the Scoutmaster failed to notify the Advancement Coordinator that the SPL had been removed for cause, ... shame on us SCOUTERS.

 

If the Chaplain failed to notify his Chaplain's Aide as well as the Scoutmaster about absences and substandard performance in carrying out the POR, ... shame on us SCOUTERS.

 

Why do I say shame on us? In this case, we adults have not managed the advancement process. Should these Scouts be turned back at the final Scoutmaster Conference or the EBOR, YOU AND YOUR FELLOW SCOUTERS HAVE GIVEN THEM AMMUNITION FOR THEIR APPEALS.

 

THE METHODS OF SCOUTING WORK INTERDEPENDENTLY. Advancement in our youth program requires leveraging the Adult Association Method ... that means MENTORSHIP from the SM, and in this case, from the Chaplain. Where were they?

 

There is some hope for recovery. Let's use the Adult Association Method together with the Ideals Method. These two young men need to be asked in a Scoutmaster Conference, or perhaps in a Board of Review, on their honor, if they think they have truly met the mandates of their PORs. If they say no, you have a chance to re-set and go forward again.

 

As far as letting them initiate a project, there's nothing in the BSA literature that says an Eagle Leadership Advancement project need have only registered Scouts as the labor pool. My son is a youth member in the Barbershop Harmony Society. His project was hospital visitation, with song, of Veterans at 2 VA hospitals and a regional pediatric teaching hospital in support of their recreation therapy programs. His labor pool was ... the adults of his local barbershop chorus.

 

If they can come up with a viable project, they get to keep going forward.

 

What would I do? Get my Scoutmaster to be doing his job of mentorship and management. He's the program officer. His is the honor, but his also is the accountability.

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[MollieDuke]

I am so glad to see that you all feel as I do that this problem seemed to stem from the adults in charge. I have inherited a real mess and so has the new SM. According to the outgoing SM, he did counsel these kids and according to the kids--well, big shock--he didn't. I really believe he didn't. Can't prove it either way, but the way things went down just prior to his leaving, I can believe the kids easier than the outgoing SM. I do feel that after the holidays especially, we need a new SM conference w/ not only these two kids, but the others too. It'll take me this long to wade through this morass I've inherited and for the adults to decide what to do for specifics in each case as each and every kid has something either missing or questionable in each case. Another example is that the kids say they did "Collections" as a group once last year. None of them ever got the MBs and there is no record, although, they can all tell me the details of not only their collection, but the other kids' collections they brought in, too. I really believe they did this, but no blue cards can be located, no advancement sheets, and no record at council office. It's a real mess. I've been going over each child's blue cards, advancement sheets, and charts with each family just to see what's missing and I started with the older boys first mainly because they don't have the time that younger kids have.

 

I really feel these adults need taken to task for what they've done, but there is no way do so. IMHO it's a sad day for scouting when the leaders can't abide by the scout law.

 

The new SM is dedicated, but the boys are no longer excited or really even care. Many have dropped out. We haven't had council support in over two years due to administrative changes and a bunch of other stuff, and finally, we're getting help. I was recruited because I do advancement in another group as well, and already was familiar with the paperwork, but I've never run across a mess like this.

 

I think my recommendation to the committee will be to allow these boys to continue as able and recommend SM conference to stress participation using the book and quotes from that as sources as suggested above. I also think that at that SM conference, we should include the parents. Thoughts on that?

 

Anyhow, thanks again for making my job a little easier as usual. It's sad, but we'll wade through it somehow---we have to.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Wow. Did you give a lot of info for recommendations here.

 

1) Leverage the Troop Scribe. Have him maintain a wall chart of basic advancement to First Class. Have him be the 1st guy Scouts see after getting a blue card from the SM. Let him be responsible for the feeder data on advancement.

 

2) BUY TROOPMASTER (ok, you get a choice, whatever information management system for Scouting you want ;-) ). Aggressively work with the Scribe to stay on top of advancements.

 

3) If your Council has rolled out internet advancement, use it. If not, you have a choice of the TM comma delimted data on a floppy, or cross-decking the output to a rtf format Word document (Hit me in PM, I can send you one of those). I find the clerks at Council are more accurate when they don't have to decipher handwriting.

 

4) Rather than having SM conferences with parents and Scouts, just have them with the Scouts. THEN, have SM communicate privately, amongst adults, with the parents ... if he feels he needs to.

 

5) Training, training, training, and more training. Ensure the SM and his ASMs are fully trained. Ensure they attend Roundtable and share good news with other units. Ensure the Committee takes TC Challenge. For you, spend time over a cup of coffee with the District Advancement Chairman. (It'll be worth it when it comes time to prep Eagle Projects for district approval).

 

6) Help the youth find a goal that will re-energize them. There are many high-adventure opportunities across the Nation. It's not too late to start planning something instead of "Camp Swampy" for next summer.

 

7) The old folk are gone. Just go forward. It's not worth your emotional time and energy.

 

 

Have fun doing this.