Double Eagle

On one hand we have the mother not disciplining her son (toad killer/picky eater) and we have this father. One extreme to the other. The parents are bad if they do and bad if they don't. In addition to helping scouts, don't we also help those in need. Both need help with parenting. Bob, keep in mind that not every troop is in the states, we are abroad too. What I perceive as abuse may only be tradition. Caning, coining, and even to the possibility of being ignorant about "mongolian spots" as bruises. What you see as abuse may lead to an ugly situation between adults that will spill into the youth arena. Help the parent. The adult needs help from a respected adult in anger management.

Bob, bear with me on text book stuff. I'm playing on an extended camping trip in the Balkans without all my references just a little memory.

Bob, you got me on that Sager was not a male. I guess I didn't catch the connection. Call me naive.

A couple of issues: The reference that it must be reported to the authorities is ok. Who are the "authorities" and who decides these "authorities"? Are the authorities clergy, police, council executive, counselors, CO, COR, Troop committee, or who?

Symantics about "sexual harassment" and "sexual misconduct". A big margin for interpretation there.

Liability on the leaders? When this is over and done, the younger scout will regret ever telling the troop leaders. I envision a smear campaign on the troop. It will tear the troop apart. There won't be any volunteers, scouts won't want to join and the older scout will not have his problem fixed. Is this your advise to the maai?

State laws differ, heck I don't even scout in a state. But, local country laws do. They have similiar laws that can be violated. You mentioned that the leaders did nothing, not true. Verbal counseling by the leaders did happen. I would hate to go alert the council for every mishandled situation. What if you received a traffic ticket while on a scouting trip. Should we kick you out of the troop? Shouldn't we fix the problem, with the older scout, and not be so quick to put a band-aid on the troop by kicking him out. Chances are that the younger scout wouldn't want him kicked out and neither does this older scout. If the younger scout thought the older would retaliate in camp, imagine what would happen out of camp for an over reacting committee. Let the leaders on the scene handle it and not second guess them, support them and their decision. Follow up with the committee, parents, and let the CE know how you handled it. I think the leaders made a call for the betterment of the scouts and troop. Its easy to armchair quarterback without being in the middle of this (myself included)).

red feather, I'm still one of those things from the sky.

Bob, by the letter of the guidelines, you are correct. Isn't the G2SS and YP guidelines, well guidelines. They are not laws or orders. Hasn't the BSA left their interpretation up to the leaders to decide what is excessive. With all the legal stuff and kicking out of the troop, when would you have time to deliver the promise and put the outing in scouting.

Isn't the intent of the guides to identify potential problems and offer a solution. I can't imaging how you can recruit leaders and scouts with a reputation of turning in every infraction of any guides to the local authorities. Bob, its only a matter of time until you are turned in for something that you didn't think was a big deal, it is the environment you help create. Scouts are boys. Not adults with such sound judgement that they can vote or decide whether to drink legally or not. Stop the zero defect atmosphere.

I doubt that turning in this parent would get your desired results. The parent needs someone, non-threating person they respect, to point out some "observations" not attack them. Kids don't come with instruction manuals and many parents try their best. Lets help them and not prosecute them.

OGE, Your porn magazine incident is not that unrealistic. Having scouts that legally drove to troop meetings in town, Many of these older scouts were fully responsible for their actions. How we (as leaders) deal with their "trying to be grown up" ways is what says the most about the leaders and the program. You will never get cussing, smoking straw, name calling, or physical contact (reference "Ages and Stages")out of the scouts.

You mention an opportunity to trash a leader's reputation. I think confiscating the book and if the scout wants it back, the scout with parent can have it back. Many older scouts cannot be bullied by adults, yes it happens, to act right. Many outweigh and overtower their leaders. Treating them like young men is what builds the mutual respect for them to grow. If they want to attack your character, let them, your actions and behavior prior to any of their rumors will speak for you.

Some posters would like to kick out the scout that did the humping. In your scenario some of the posters would kick out the scout with the book, notify the police and probably persue an investigation on how the scout got the book and prosecute the seller/distributor whether it was stolen from an older brother or relative. I don't think that is how we as "leaders" are showing compassion, caring, judgement, and fixing the problem.

Bob White, you misquoted yaworski when he asked SagerScout (sarcastically)how long he had been a boy not a boy scout.

Posters please remember that not all scouts/scouters were/are perfect, some of us had out wings clipped, needingly so, before being able to soar with eagles. It only made us more appreciative of great leaders versus good leaders.

Gotta agreee with eagle_sm and Ed Movi on this one. I don't see this as a kicking out offense. Needing some counseling diffinitely, probably by a professional, the other sessions with troop leaders doesn't seem to work.

Time warp to the 70s - 80s: Most of us grew up in a time when you could carry a pocketknife in school and not be expelled. We did the gym-antics and did some unscout-like behavior. Most of us have done something really dumb as a teenager and were glad we were never caught.

Time warp back: Today the teenagers have a harder time than we did. Teen murders in school. Cussing not only in public but in front of their parents and smoking too. Any comment like: kill, bomb, gun, or such can get them expelled. How many of us have used those words in school growing up. Sex is open and its not unusual for teenagers to have the opposite sex in their bedroom and this is ok with parents. Condom commercials on TV. They have more negative peer pressure and options than us old-timers.

Bottom Line: Scouting does not have need to have a "Zero Tolerance" on everything. Somethings yes, but not all. Scouts are boys first. We can't take that out of them. They will do some dumb things they will regret. How we help them through the mistakes and encourage with patience is what builds character. Aren't you that say kick the scout out expecting scouts to have their character built or is one of our goals to "build character". Its not always a "norman rockwell" scouting atmosphere.

I disagree with Bob on kicing him out. One thing your unit has is a trust where the older scout can admit to the adults about the incident. Many other youths would have take the "I didn't do it" approach/defense. If he is able to open up and admit it, there is a doorway for the adults or a counselor to either open or close. Now is the best time to talk about the insert in every scout handbook about abuse. Granted I don't see this as a "boys will be boys" issue. This is not only bullying but abuse. My question is how the older scout's parent(s) took the removal from camp.

One final thought is how the troop family (committee, scouts, CO, and parents) may perceive how after the adults on-site handling it were "bullied" by the younger scout's parents to change their minds about their actions and change to the removal from camp.

From the front door of my tent.

Bob, maybe the big difference between the programs is the cause. In Cubs, the adults plan and resource the program. The Cubs have very little to do with what activities they do or don't do. Scouts, as you know, has the PLC (youth elected leaders) planning the program. Often times my way of fun and theirs differ, but its their program. Don't think that they get to do whatever they want and we are just there. Guidance and advice is always there.

Having two teenage scouts, I think that I can kinda speak about the teenage mind. As Cubs, its easy to keep them occupied with cubs and at that age they really like to do all the cub stuff. As hormones and "know-it-allism" take control, parents aren't as smart as the kids, according to the kids. What used to be interesting, changes to the opposite sex, other activities, being cool, even to the point of being in scouts is not cool.

Having been there as a youth, and in both programs as an adult, Scouts are more difficult to deal with than Cubs. I think more character development occurs in the teenage years than Cub years.

OGE, Congrats on being a bear. It seems like you have a bit of evolution (not another thread) in you. Being an eagle and bear. Does that make you a Beagle?

From a birds eye view, all the critters seem to be playing nice. Until...

On the OA side of the house, you may need to transfer if moving to another lodge. This is fairly easy as long as you have a current membership and complete the paperwork and pay the transfer fee or dues for gaining lodge. If you sons were elected for the OA and not completed the ordeal. The lodge can write a letter to the gaining lodge explaining the scout was elected but not able to attend an ordeal. This should work. If problems, contact the lodge vice-chief for membership, if there is one. Keep in mind that you have one year from the election to complete the ordeal or they will have to be re-elected (hopefully without any dimpled chads).

The PLC comes up with themes, events, and things that they want to participate in. The SM and/or SPL present these to the committee for the resourcing and practicality of the idea. Some ideas the committee votes on are: How/where to get troop T-shirts, Fundraisers, Budget, Transportation, Membership, Equipment buying, and community service opportunities. The PLC and the committee do not compete. Good communication between the scouts and the committee set the troop up for success. Get the committee to come to troop meetings to see their resourcing in action.

Parents that cross over with the scout are asked to help out in other ways than in cubs. In cubs, they are used to an adult role in the program. Taking them away from the adults and having the troop leadership (boy-ran PLC) working them through the ranks is ideal. This is a prime time to offer services and for you to learn about the troop. Many times, you coming in may seem like you are an outcast because the troop already has systems in place to handle the troop. Most SM and ASM were already there. Not that they don't need you but want you to let them know what you can do. In cubs, many times parents are "solicited" to be leaders because no one else will. Not so with most troops. Come in gradually and enjoy the time to breathe. You will most likely get "Scout Pox" and be volunteering more than you expect.

Having worked for two female SM, I have no problem with women as leaders. As a youth, I referred to myself as a "girl scout" due to always scouting for girls(only a joke). You are welcomed and please enjoy your ride. The OA looks for members regardless of gender.(This message has been edited by Double Eagle)

Fully support them. However. Rules for them:

1. If damaged, stolen, or lost, the scout's responsibility

2. If it is disrupting others, its put away.

3. If it is heard and has unscoutlike overtones. Its history.

4. Phones are for adults only.

5. Talkabouts are for leaders (SM, ASM, SPL, ASPL).

6. Never had them at meetings.

7. You bring it, you carry it.

These are just a few I use. I don't see them as putting a negative nature theme to an outing. Most of us have our vices. I like to listen to the mulit-band radio I take. Listening with scouts, it can get interesting listening to other language's shows. We sometimes play bugle calls on a "boom box". Burl Ives scouting cassette in the current catalog is hard to play without power. Just like everything, abuse is easy to do. Common sense and consideration of others is needed. It is sometimes a good bridge for the generation gap to see leaders compete with scouts on an equal playing field. Most of us wouldn't win. They show us something, and then its our turn to show them something (hopefully, nature type stuff).

Bottom line: The electronics should never be a substitute for nature's entertainment. Fun yes, but not a substitute.

Wow! Having thought about this a while and read the posts, definitely time for a meeting, have the parent present, with the SM, CC, COR, and even the committee. This will be one that you will probably win in the troop but lose the scout. From what I hear, he needs some real maturity quick, fast, and in a hurry. The answer is not with the troop. Its with the parent(s). She seems to be answering for her son. Time to hurt her feelings if it may. Its only a matter of time before other scouts and parents question whether the troop is worthy of their son's atention. The fire department is already doing that. Thank them for the time and efforts.

I know this is drastic, but time to put a stop to it now. There is no easy way. Based off the mother's attitude, she'll probably quit after the meeting. Better to have the committee agree and let the DE know of the problem and the decision. This is where her protest will be first addressed.

Stick to your guns and don't be bullied by her. Kinda' like the comment that ozemu made jokingly. hmmmmmm?

The number of hours does not make a project acceptable or not. It would be easy to drag out a project. He will do a lot of the manhours but in the resourcing, planning and leading. The muscle of the project should come from his help with his guidance and direction.

Outside-troop-leadership roles are good for being a community leader but not for the scouts. I think the board will see this as a positive. If he didn't live up to expectations during his leadership role, he most likely fell under the ASPL. Troop JLT should have helped in expectations if conducted.

It sounds like the scout had scout spirit, being on camp staff, and still sticking with it and not quitting. He may not feel connected with the scouts if there is a large age gap. I don't know where he stands in maturity, hangs with the adults or a hero to the younger ones. It seems like you are holding his past few months, maybe longer as how he is as a total scout. The board will look as his whole scouting time, even cubs and the arrow of light. Don't write him off as being a poor scout because he has some personal struggles going on. Teenagers have a million, with two teen boys/scouts, I know. We all go through slumps and pull out of it. At least he is still with the program, after putting up with this fight. Sounds like you may have the problem. One voice does not get to make the decision.

As for the Dad/Eagle. He is caught in the fight and on the scout's/son's side of course. Someone like the advancement chair should remind him of the requirements. Back off and let it come from another source. Seems like you are at a stale-mate with this one.

Bottom line: The board is pretty good at seeing through eye-wash and looks at the total scout.

Gotta go back a few years. Loved the green uniforms. They were cheap, could be found everywhere. Any garage sale, or thrift store seemed to have them. The short sleeve ones had no collar, so a neckerchief had to be worn. You blended into the forest, "Leave No Trace" principal? Scouts were not afraid to get it dirty or wear it. It could be recognized by everyone because the style was worn for so long. The current ones look good in pictures and public but are too pretty in the field. Give me one that is an earth tone and as durable as the BDUs.

OGE: I still have the green garters and socks. Someday maybe.

Overall, they cost too much to scout heavy in them.

GO!!! Having been there twice, once as a 14yr old. I think I can tell you that as a scout this will be an adventure of a lifetime. The fires closed some of the north area for a while but itineraries have been changed and safety is ever present. The hazards are nothing that the average camp cannot experience. The ranger doesn't abandon you. There is a lot of coaching and guiding in those days that he shares with the crew. Once the ranger leaves, the crew will be successful and will bond even more. It is the ideal place to live the outdoor portion of scouting. The scout will grow as big as a mountain and burst at the seams with stories. Let him go.

Parents have the hardest time at Philmont. Or should I say not at Philmont. Although a big trip for a young guy, parents will worry and try every way to contact junior on the trail. He will be in good hands. The staff is excellent and well trained. Support and have faith in your scout. He will be a little different when he returns. More confident and have the magic of scouting flowing. It may be hard to make him talk about anything else.

I took a troop of 20 to Switzerland to the Kandersteg International Scout Center and had scouts younger than yours go. This required several train changes (2 minutes to get all scouts and equipment on). Money exchanges, borders, and then transportation home. Many of the parents were worried, but the meetings before helped prepare them and the scouts with what to expect. We go again in Jan 03.

For more info on the current Philmont trail talk and info go to www.philmont.com and check out the site. Daily updates on treks, advice, and equipment.

Where to start. This sounds too familiar. Like earlier stated the Charter Organization has the say in the selection of the Cubmaster. The same for troops. Where you have only one person going for the position, I've seen where several wanted the positions of Cubmaster and Scoutmaster. This made an uneasy environment for the committee. Get help from your Unit Commissioner or Assistant District Commmissioner.

This guy is way out of bounds with removing leaders from their positions. The Cubmaster should be working with the den leader coach to help you.

Whether you have a disability or not does not a leader make. I think that this is a positive with the boys being able to openly talk about the problem. They are curious and what better way to see that a disability is really only in their minds, not yours.

Award these boys with what they earned. I have a scout spirit necklace that is earned every troop meeting. They keep it until the next meeting. The scouts seem to go for that more than some other things. The little achievements to us are monumental things to the boys. Recognize in public, counsel in private.

Sounds like your Cubmaster needs to be pryed from his pedestal. See if someone can't get him to a roundtable where things like this can be tabled. Not to attack him, but to help with the working of the pack. Its only time until the boys take up a negative attitude towards scouting with the current program.

OGE, Last year I had a couple of the scouts get homesick. What I did was have some of the older scouts individually talk with the scout and keep them busy. This worked pretty well. Their blue state only lasted for about an hour and back to scouting stuff. Some precautions could be pre-written letters from parents and given secretly to the SM to use as needed. On the council level, if the problem is widespread, the parent's day at camp being closer to the middle of the week. Ours is on Friday. Wednesday is my recommendation, helps with depleting scout finances (that dang trading post just has too much good stuff) and is a good support day to keep going with the activities.

As for the phone, case-by-case. I've seen this help and I've seen scouts plead, cry, and beg to come home with no luck. This only made it hard for me to explain why the parents would not let them or come to get them. Hard on the scout and me when the phone call only compounded the problem.

As a scout, I remember some scouts that were homesick. The easing into longer campouts works. As SM, I discourage the parent/scout tent partners. Scouts with scouts. This is a step especially for the close ones. Kind of breaking ties gently.

Ahhh, the magic of scouting. Keep the show going with positive comments and don't blow up about small mishaps. Seems like he got some independance and confidence all by himself (he thinks).

Mike Long has a good list. Go with that. Maybe these two are OA members that could put on a demonstration as part of camp promotion on fire safety. This could be conducted at a camporee or the other weeks of summer camp.

Removal from position should be probably looked at more. Especially after a cool down period of the SM/parent. I've seen this happen a couple of times and it was more of the parent acting than scouter. They were not put in the position because of one incident, and maybe not punished to that extent for one.

How did they take the action? Not only being punished at camp but to have it continue back in the troop may be a wedge between them and scouting. We "Grumps" make mistakes and I'm an expert. Definitely poor judgement on the fire/can issue.

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We all love the weather rock.

Caveman golf with a club made from local down wood.

Tent totems

megaphone from a downed birch tree.

Hatrack

Good luck.

cmjiam: Agreed on looking out for the son. As for individual accounts. Some problems come with that one. This seems a financial nightmare. Here's how. While it is in the bank earning interest, does the interest go to the scout or troop. Is the "account" an actual account or is it a portion of a lump sum included in the budget. What happens if the scout quits. Can the scout and/or parents give authorization for the use (at camp the scout runs out of cash and says charge it to his account?). Can the parent decide or just the scout. How will this be handled if the new troop does not have individual accounts. Parameters on what the money can be used for, such as FOS, re-registering, training, family members involvement.

I think these are issues that can arise with the accounts. I'm hoping these types are addressed in the operating guidelines (by-laws by some). Seems like a lot of issues and headaches for the committee with individual accounts. What do ya think, or how have they worked in some troops. I'm not sold on them yet.

cjmiam: You referred in earlier posts to go to small claims court. This troop needs help, not court, not being abandoned, there are still scouts there that don't have a parent taking them to the other troops. You mention the promise, After leaving the troop I think ScoutParent should still persue help for the troop. What's the downside if they do? The troop doesn't have any impact on the moved scout. Moving the scout is a bandaid. Not the cure. Solve the problem with the funds, and also the management of the troop. You will never please every parent. You are so quick to side with one parent. Are other scouts leaving for the same reasons. Gotta agree with nldscout and recommend ScoutParent talk (or send a letter) to the troop committee with the reasons for the move.

ScoutParent: Commissioners can help this troop. Now is the time to help the troop from afar.

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acco40: The boy leadership does the shake-down. We,the leaders, fall in with them and do ours with them. I know, someone will still not have something.

Ok you must be south of the Grayling, Roscommon, Mio area. They have the black flys. After scouting in the "Thumb area" I sympothize about your "other state bird". I've heard that if you put a harness on the skeeters, you can have them fly your gear where you want it. Caution: Failure to keep themn on a leash will result in your gear being lost.

nldscout: I know your area. Kiss Camp Portaferry for me. Loved it. Former Lowville ASM, before and during the merger.

ScoutParent: It seems the tools were in place before the SM and wife were able to affect the troop. Back when you were #1 troop. What happened? Its kinda hard to see a troop fall like that. Has the committee changed from back then. What is the unit commissioner doing. If not unit, what is the ADC doing. They're there to help with troops, not the enemy. Better to not abandon the troop when all indicators say it needs help. Every troop goes through ups and downs, there is no "Norman Rockwell" troop. My advice is help the troop, the SM and scouts need it.