Docrwm

Basementdweller wrote: "Call me stupid but what are the cubs gonna do????"

About what? The Blue Uniforms are still there as are all the insignia that go along with them - including the red unit numerals.

emb021 wrote: "What does being a CS DL have to do with which Trained patch you wear? The old Trained patch (red and tan) are for the old style shirts. The new Trained patch (green and tan) are for the new centennial uniform.

"My friend at the Scout Shop told me that they were "directed to destroy all red based patches other than the CS unit numerals". "

Am a little suspicious of that statement. I visited my local Scout Shop (run by National) and the only old item they had pulled from the shelves were the red loops. I even chatted with the person there about that. Both the old and new numbers and trained strips were available for sale. (I even had to asked about the new trained strips, as they weren't out on the shelves, only the old ones.)

Again. The old numbers and trained strips are for the old tan uniform, Cub scout uniforms, AND Venturing uniforms. The new numbers and trained strips are for the new centennial uniforms.

The BSA is allowed the red numberals to continue for the cub scout AND Venturing uniforms.

If you are wearing the new uniform (which you can), you should be wearing the new unit numbers and trained strip. What does the color of the numerals on the boys' uniforms have to do with the ones you wear? When Cub Scouts were rolled out, the cub scouts wore yellow on blue community strips, and blue on yellow unit numbers, whereas the adult male cub scout leaders wore the tan scout uniform with red on khaki community strips and white on red numbers. The color matching of insignia is based on the uniform you are wearing, NOT on what others are wearing.

Uh, yes, the red & tan trained patch is larger. Don't necessarily agree that it 'matches' the old uniform colors or CS insignia any better. "

Ok, I'll try.

The issue of the directive came up with two staff, separately. Also, they had 20-40 of them 4-5 days prior to my last visit and 0 on my last visit. YES, I know that they are intended for the "old" shirts - that's what I bought. My problem is twofold - 1) it seems VERY non-Thrifty to destroy them, as I was told had happened, particularly when they are still useable according to all that we've been told about this new uniform being "transitional" and old uniforms still being ok to wear and the fact that they are still selling old uniform shirts, etc. and 2) to me the new insignia just don't match the old, they've gotten rid of the red and the tan is a different shade, etc. on the new ones so they do NOT match the old shirt or other insignia, so mixing and matching them on a shirt might be officially ok but its not happening on my shirts.

As for the color of the numerals and such on the adult volunteer shirt. If they made a BIG blue uniform I'd advocate for us as adult volunteers working with Cub Scouts wearing it since we're working with Cubs and not Boy Scouts. They don't. So, I try to make mine look as much like theirs in order to build a sense of unity, belonging, and to let folks know which group of boys I'm associated with when they look. Might sound strange to some but I'm NOT a SM or ASM, I'm a DL and my boys and I wear the same unit insignia and such, same cap, same neckerchief, etc. It makes us a UNIT. Everything that I see coming along as far as the uniforms makes sense for unity among Boy Scouts but erodes that unity among the Adults and Boys of Cub Scouting IMHO.

Old post - sorry I misread the year - oops.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

If those leather belts with the Woodbadge designs fit in the loops of the old Scout pants the new web belts ought to do just fine.

Thanks for clarifying the distinction between a Council Shop and a Nationally owned and run Shop. In this instance, it would seem its a Nationally owned one as they stated they had received a directive to destroy the old patches.

I ordered the old trained patches elsewhere at a VERY nominal extra charge.

Lots to like about the new uniforms. Nice new belts that seem much more functional. Better materials for use in the field. Socks that will reduce foot injuries in the field. Etc.

Just wish the rollout had been more thought out and planned better, particularly for those of us associated with CS programs.

I've found that the enthusiasm of the Adult Volunteers is a BIG plus in getting attendance at broader events. Also, knowledge is key. All too many of the events get nearly no advertising. Our Council website is pretty bad about this, I have to dig and dig to find Fliers and such on events that are on the calendar. When we go to sign up on the dates that they are said to be open for sign-up the website is in "test mode" frequently.

Organization of the ads and prep sends a good signal to parents that the event itself will be well organized. If its seen as well organized you will get two other impressions - safe & worthwhile.

When I put our Den packets together for this school year and our recruiting events I included fliers, when I could find them, from Council and when I could not find a pre-made flier I made one for those events that are Big Draws for many kids. We put a calendar together and tried to have a sign-up sheet and/or flier for each event for which that was possible this early in the year. Pictures help and, also where possible, I tried to include a positive pic of the boys at the event from last year so the new boys might recognize some of their friends having a great time.

I'm currently working on our Committee to push for Cub World that our Council runs in the fall at the scout reservation. My family were the only folks from our Pack there last year and we had a terrific time. I'm hoping that we can increase attendance this year by 100% ;->

Then they should be more serviceable for holding gear - as I understand the new term is for what was once called a "uniform" - without slipping or binding.

Here's a bit more information for you. Those shorts are probably the ones designed in the 80s by Oscar de la Renta for BSA. They have never been a big hit with Scouts, hence their presence in the donated scout clothing you were provided. The rule for BSA is, leaving aside Sea Scouts, that once an item is approved it is always permissible to be worn for uniformed occasions. If they are clean, serviceable, and not offensive to your son or others then I say be Thrifty and keep wearing them until they are either the wrong size or unserviceable. New Switchbacks are pants that have zippers to allow portions of the legs to be removed changing them into shorts or longer for other purposes when full length pants are not desired.

Welcome to Scouting!!

GMitch wrote: "One thing that is interesting is I had 2 new interpreter strips made and asked for one to be red/tan and one green/tan. I'm guessing that since they are worn over the BSA which is still red, they sent me two red ones. It appears they are not going to make them in the green, and I'd guess the same is true for Varsity or Venture strips."

Honestly, we shouldn't be having to guess. What your response, and many others on the new uniforms plus the different information many have gotten from BSA employees at the Scout Shops, indicates is that BSA rushed this out without completely thinking it through - or at least that is what it looks like to me. The Uniform guides are coming out AFTER the uniforms? Who managed that? This whole mess has made me wonder if folks in Tx remember the Be Prepared and a Scout is thrifty, etc. aspirational statements we present to the boys?

I saw the ad in Boys Life that says that the new uniform is "transitional" and can be mixed and matched. That's NOT what I've been told here on these lists by some or the impression that is held by the volunteers with whom I've spoken.

I ordered some "old" trained patches online. They cost me about a quarter more, with shipping, then they would have if National had not directed their destruction at the Scout Shop(s). I will not be putting them onto "new" shirts but onto new "old" shirts. Why? Well, for one the new shirts don't fit me - at all - because they appear to be sized differently. That's my solution until v2 of the "new" uniform AND the uniform manual are out.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

I agree. They also seemed, although I did not hold them up together to compare, to be slightly wider.

I asked at the Council Scout Shop today and they knew nothing of the Red Jac-Shirt ever having been on clearance. The fellow I spoke with wanted to know how much of a discount and seemed real interested in getting one himself. I told him that they were back in the regular uniform/gear section again. He said that theirs had stayed at their regular price.

I know I'm new but it seems to me that some folks ALWAYS see BSA and their directives as perfect.

The term I used is "Thrifty". Destroying thousands of patches that are perfectly good - particularly since they did not run out of "Old" BS uniform shirts yet - is just plain WASTEFUL.

For those who checked with their Scout Shop - can you get me a couple? Ours had 0 on hand. I asked and both the manager and my friend told me the same story. They were "directed" to destroy them. They had a couple of score of them last week when I was there and 0 today. I believe them when they tell me what they were directed to do.

As for the CS issue - I'm not a Boy Scout, I'm a Cub Scout Adult Leader. My uniform will have the same numbers as my boys. Sorry, but the other doesn't make any sense outside the "bottom line" perspective. I wear Blue tabs on my shoulders, a Den Leader Patch with Blue background and yellow lettering, etc.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Congratulations. Best of luck with your new duties.

See my other thread but I was told today that the Scout Shops were directed to destroy all the Red-based patches like the "Trained" patch. So, if you need a replacement, or buy a new "old" uniform shirt you will have to use the new "Trained" patch unless you can find one somewhere other than the Official outlets.

I was just at my Scout Shop picking up an old style shirt before my size is gone. Tried to get a Red & Tan "Trained" patch to go with the Red Numerals as I am a CS DL NOT a BS volunteer. My friend at the Scout Shop told me that they were "directed to destroy all red based patches other than the CS unit numerals".

Another instance of Boy Scout centric thinking by the Professionals IMHO. Sorry but I will be wearing my Red Unit numbers to match the boys and BSA seems to be allowing the red numerals to continue for the time being. I think that the Red & Tan "Trained" patch is both larger and actually matches the old uniforms colors and CS insignia better.

What ever happened to "Thrifty"???

Sorry for the venting but it just seems that every time I turn around CS's are an afterthought when we have to deal with National.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

jmwalston said: "This seems to present a Catch-22 to me. It seems that if the issue is sidestepped now, then the impression made is that the incident doesn't warrant scrutiny later. Waiting to address it after all requirement are completed could lead to the argument of "If it was such a big deal, why wasn't something said or done about it at the time?" These forums contain several cases of debate on whether a Scout could be considered worthy after the fact, and many have stated the opinion that the problem should have been addressed at the time. As to the fine print of the matter here, it is just about approval to start an Eagle project. IMO, it should be disapproved as written, as it contains goals that are not obtainable is I perceive, mainly, his ability to demonstrate leadership unless he is directing others to leave the money under the chair or inject the cyanide."

Thank you. You expressed my concerns and thoughts better than I did and I appreciate it very much. I tire of rulebook folks that miss the ENTIRE point of the process - Character Development. Has this child demonstrated the Character necessary to even be legitimately considered for advancement? I believe that ALL actions of our Scouts should be a part of the ongoing review.

On another note, as someone that has been directed by the Court to make a determination of dangerousness, I can state that the specificity of the threat makes the dangerousness level go up significantly. I can also state that the reaction of the parent is profoundly disturbing to me and also seriously increases the degree of dangerousness posed in the situation. IMHO, this is not a youth for whom the issue of Eagle should even be on the radar at this point. Perhaps in the future if he demonstrates significant changes and growth but at present he needs to be seen as soon as possible by a professional equipped by training and expertise in making the determination I have touched on here. Many incidents like this one appear in the records for the youth involved in Columbine and each was ignored, written off, dealt with at an inappropriate level by ill-equipped adults, or even encouraged. Failure to intervene appropriately is a disservice to this youth and to those around him - IMHO.

Pinewood Derby cars are great. Camping gear, camping gear, camping gear. Its the first question I get asked at school by the boys. Yes, they love PWD but many will not know about it ahead of time. We put a kit out (the blue boxed one that we got from the council not the paper boxed one you buy) with a couple of finished cars. We also had a scrape book with photos of the boys at the Scout Reservation pitching tents, marshmellows around the campfire, etc. Stuff that will visually engage them from across a loud and crowded room (you said in the gymnasium which is an echo chamber).

Good Luck.

The local SM has served over 40 years in various capacities within BSA. He's a WWII Vet and has volunteered for more community organizations than he can remember. His Troop has around 100 boys in it with 60+ showing up at every activity. His uniform has 4 rows of Knots. At the Memorial Day event we do locally for the National Cemetery he was wearing his mini-ribbons from his USN service. PH with clusters that none of us knew about. SS that none of us knew about. He was embarrassed when one of us pointed it out. He said he wore it to honor the folks with whom he served but who were no longer with us.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

HawkUH60 - Thanks, but are you sure?

I mean I don't want to lord it over anyone that I've actually been a ...gasp...Tiger Den Leader!

FScouter said: "What is "ready for Eagle"? A boy is not "ready" for Eagle until he has successfully completed all of the requirements for Eagle. The boy in this case is making a proposal for a project, one of several requirements to earn the Eagle rank. Is the project proposal acceptable or is it not? So the kid made a stupid, maybe terrorist threat, that has nothing to do with the quality of his project proposal. If the board of review later wants to turn him down for the Eagle rank, more power to them. But it should be done at the board of review, not three steps before! "

I don't claim to be as experienced as many here. I thought, THOUGHT, that being an Eagle was supposed to involve more than merely X # of merit badges and Y # of projects. Sorry if I was wrong. Perhaps this is an instance in which allowing for more CHARACTER development BEFORE trying to go before the board of review is appropriate.

"The foremost responsibility of an Eagle Scout is to live with honor. To an Eagle Scout, honor is the foundation of all character. He knows that 'a Scout is trustworthy' is the very first point of the Scout Law for a good reason. An Eagle Scout lives honorably, not only because honor is important to him, but because of the vital significance of the example he sets for other scouts. Living honorably reflects credit on his home, his church, his troop, and his community. May the white of the Eagle Badge remind you to always live with honor."(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Ethics is a way of saying that the person has exhibited that they understand the Spirit of the body of laws. One is Ethical when one extends their behavior beyond the letter of the rules/laws and exhibits behavior in concert with those laws but for which there is currently no specific law. One cannot be behaving ethically when they are coerced into acting but only when they freely choose to act without any compulsion because they believe it to be right and proper given the values that underlie and weave all the rules and laws together and are the origin of those rules/laws.

Just my thoughts.

Oh no, have I started down a slippery slope to poor scouting?!?! I just got and sewed on my first knot. Tell me I'll be ok??

We're waiting a little while for the introduction of sewing as my son is a Wolf now. My wife and I have discussed it and we're thinking WI or WII.

I keep seeing the term "Scout" and unfortunately I've learned that most of the time folks mean Boy Scout when they use that term not all Scouts or Cubs.

So, how old were folks when they became responsible for sewing on their patches? I was in 4th or 5th grade as I recall.

Our unit has ours made up that way and some of the more experienced Moms REALLY appreciate having the single patch for our 3 digit unit with Veteran bar! I have to say they look better, IMHO, than the four sewn individually onto the shirts too.

Perhaps I'm off base here and please forgive me but why would anyone think that a young man who wrote something like that, in this day and age after Columbine and VaTech, is READY for his Eagle?

Don't care if it was a "joke". Don't care if Dad thought it was a "joke". Don't care if others here think its just a boy being a boy. Is a boy who put that in writing to his advancement person, had it reviewed by his parent, and kept it in after having time to think about it (didn't write it in a fit of anger or on the spur of the moment) showing the judgment that an Eagle should possess?

Just my thoughts.

I, too, am glad to hear that I'm not the only one that was a bit taken aback by that choice. Frankly, BL has some good material in it but nearly every month there is stuff that I have to think long and hard about letting my Wolf take a look at - and sometimes he just gets parts of BL.