Docrwm

There are several people who are specifically supposed to be liaisons between the District and the Unit (be it Troop, Pack, Team, or Crew):

- the paid staff the DE or DD is supposed to have regular contact with all the units in their area

- a Unit Commissioner is ideally supposed to be assigned to every unit. If you look at the Commissioners webpages at BSA you will see that all regions are running around -50% of the needed numbers of Commissioners.

- the COR is the official rep from the CO to the District

- in the absence of a specified UC for your unit there should be a District Commissioner or ADC who is responsible for contact with your unit.

As others have said, every adult volunteer can contact any of the District Committee members, District Chair, or District Commissioner staff (all of whom are volunteers like you) or the District Executive of District Director, if you have one, (both of whom are paid staff).

The goal, from what I was taught in basic unit commissioner training recently, is to have the UC visit each unit at least once a month. They are primarily there as support and to assist the units in achieving the highest operational levels of quality.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

I've been told in a private email that my position on the roll of the CC in being the sole person responsible prior to the IH of the CO to approve adult volunteers is in error. I'm always learning and open to being wrong and learning what the right answer is, but I'd like some specifics from BSA documents to tell me that the Committee Chair is only the signature stamp for the Troop or Pack Committee and not the person to be held responsible as an individual for certifying an adult volunteer to the CO and IH for their approval. The Commissioner training I took indicated that only the CC and IH could fire a volunteer - not any committee. I've looked in the manuals I have for references or specifics on who approves adult volunteers and each says the CC signs and/or approves.

This is taken directly from the current adult volunteer form from BSA National (obtained online from http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-501F.pdf):

"APPROVAL REQUIREDUNIT SCOUTERS

Unit committee chairman approves all adult personnel except the chartered organization representative

and committee chairman.

Chartered organization head or chartered organization representative. The chartered organization

representative is approved by the head of the chartered organization. Following approval by the unit

committee chairman, all other adult unit personnel must be approved by the head of the chartered

organization or the chartered organization representative.

Scout executive or designee must approve all unit Scouters." 20-501F

My read of this indicates that no committee has any role whatsoever in the adult volunteer approval process. It seems to me that its clear that three individuals must make personal decisions and be responsible for those decisions in this process for unit adult volunteers (CC, IH, and then the SE or designee). I am, always, open to being corrected by reference to appropriate BSA documents.

YIS,

-Robert

Bob White wrote:

" Doc, no one said they had to accomodate, I said that turning 18 doesn't mean they do not need to. If they accomodate a blind scout there is no reson to believe that once he turns 18 if they approve him as an ASM that he will no longer be blind or need accomodations.

If crv's concern is the ability of the individual to do the job then he should not approve him, but he should not change his mind soley on the pressure from others. "

Agreed, sorry if I misunderstood. We've seen pressure to allow people with different abilities to do whatever they want - even when if they were not disabled they would not qualify. Its a part of the tension in advocacy vs. those responsible for programming. I've spent my life trying to improve the opportunities and abilities of those who are different and/or disabled but sometimes good old fashioned common sense does need to be applied. Again, sorry for my misunderstanding.

-Robert

As the CC YOU are the only one at the unit level needed to approve the Adult Volunteer. The IH of the Charter Organization approves AFTER you have passed the name along. Sorry, its NOT a committee issue and its not a vote - its the personal responsibility of the CC.

My two cents. As for the accommodating disabilities issue and you accommodated him as a kid so now you have to as an adult - sorry - WRONG. I work with Autism and Aspergers every day of my professional life as the director of an Autism Clinic. There are roles that are ok for disabled people to do and then there are those they are not yet ready for now. Just because he was able, with supports, to fulfill the role of Scout and achieve Eagle does NOT mean he's ready to be an Adult Volunteer. Frankly, if he were not disabled you would probably not hear any crazy arguments about accommodating him as an adult. Not every adult is appropriate as an ASM. Some might be fine Committee Members but not Direct Contact personnel. Others are great working with the kids and not any use on a Committee. Everyone is different and to argue that because you accommodated him as a kid you MUST as an adult is a one-size fits all approach that is not practical nor is it required.

Good luck but from what you've written you have serious reservations about him as an ASM. If it were me, I'd say no. Just my opinion.

NeiLup wrote:

......... (quoting me) Hard to believe but the writings of BP are not inspired holy writ. The founder can, on occasion be incorrect.

He wrote:

"Two other thoughts:

1) BP was writing about Commissioners as they were in the UK, not in the BSA which is structurally very, very different

2) BP was writing about Commissioners as they were in the UK in the 1910-1920 time frame, not as they are in the BSA in 2008.

Great that you had a chance to be with Tico. He's a very special guy. "

Neil,

Sorry for the confusion - BadenP is a poster here and certainly NOT the famous Baden Powell to which you were referring. Sorry I was not clearer about it but I did put it in quote marks. Essentially, the BadenP here posted some misinformation about what Commissioners are, what their role is, etc. My response was to his misinformation not a response to the founder of Scouting.

Thanks,

-Robert

The age issue is a hold-over from the conversion from Age-based ranks to grade-based ranks for Cubs a few years back. Basically, the idea was that by going to grade-based ranks you would be keeping boys together who are in school together, etc. The age-based part is done as an OPTIONAL criteria but the principle one currently is the grade-based criteria for all Cub Scout issues (e.g., 1st grade = Tiger, 2nd = Wolf, etc.).

Hope that helps.

Congratulations - and well done!

Always a touchy subject. The definition of Atheist is the active denial of the existence of a Devine being or beings. It is derived from a - meaning not or no and theist - meaning higher entity (roughly). Deism on the other hand is more in line with the American Indian perspective because for the deist, God is not involved in the world in the same personal way as for the theist. The definition offered earlier in the thread is of a theist who believes there is something devine. The quote from Baden Powell makes it clear that Theism or the holding of a specific religious belief is required but merely deism and Atheism is not acceptable at all.

Finally, Freedom of Religion also comes with the right of free assembly and association. Which means that private groups can set and enforce membership requirements - including religious ones. No one has to be a member of BSA.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Great recommendations. Might it also help to point out that the SPL and other scouts have earned their positions and have their authority because of their hard work and achievement?

Having just completed Unit Commissioner Training and having had Tico Perez as one of the speakers I happen to own the newest copies of both the "Commisioner Fieldbook for Unit Service" and the "Commission Basic Training Manual" which I have in front of my as I type this message.

The Commissioner is said to have 5 roles:

Friend - this is said to be the most important

Representative - "To them [the unit volunteer] you may be the Boy Scouts of America. Be a good example."

Doctor - prevention is better than cure but sometimes you will need to be a paramedic by providing support to the leadership.

Teacher - "you will have a wonderful opportunity to participate in the growth of unit leaders by sharing your knowledge with them."

Coach - "you will guide units in solving their own problems."

The certificate that I am looking at states: The Boy Scouts of America on the recommendation of the XXXXXXXXXXX Council hereby commissions XXXXXXXXX as a COMMISSIONER (emphasis in original) for having been duly selected, properly oriented, and trained in commissioner basic training. Signatures are Council Commissioner and Scout Executive on the certificate.

Seems that BSA is commissioning the Commissioner NOT the council from the wording.

Also the Fieldbook states:

"As a commissioner, your role is different from that of other Scouters. The insignia you wear displays a wreath around Scouting's trefoil representing your commission to serve chartered organizations in the operation of Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, Varsity Scout teams, and Venturing crews. The quality of Scouting depends upon the men and women who wear this wreath of service."

Early in scouting in the USA the only people to wear the wreath of service were Commissioners. As the BSA grew professionals were identified as a separate group who also wear the wreath of service. However, they were the second group to wear the wreath - not the first. Volunteer Commissioners were the first.

This is weird to write but "Baden Powell" is just plain wrong about Commissioners, their role, the fact that they are indeed directly commissioned by BSA, and just about everything else he's asserted regarding Commissioners and their role in BSA. The Wreath is indeed a sign that they are Commissioned by BSA National and serve as BSA representatives. Their job is to support units in achieving the highest ideals of scouting and operating as efficiently and effectively as possible.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Its all fine and good to say what BSA's official position is about adult volunteers. The problem is that BSA is critically short of volunteers. All you have to do is look at the Commissioner numbers - most regions have fewer than half the Commissioners that they are supposed to have to fulfill their obligations. Our District has people who have roles at the District level, hold positions with Packs and Troops and are on any number of committees and boards. Most of those who do that level of volunteering are retired or semi-retired and have more time. Right now I'm DL for what was 2 dens at the Tiger level. We went from having 4 adult volunteers to having me. I see many such situations throughout scouting. The real question for me is what positions have an inherent conflict of interest - like CC and DL or COR and any direct contact position.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

John-in-KC writes

"docwrm,

Please cite the BSA pub from which you make your claim that the Centennial uniform is transitional in nature and that you can use old insignia on it or mix/match current parts and previous parts with it.

I've not heard that one.

BTW, SFAICT this uniform is not transitional. This is the next generation of Scout uniform. It's just that all the literature has not caught up with Supply Corporations' distribution channels yet."

REPLY:

Sorry, I didn't know there was going to be a quiz. Seriously, the Uniform Police thing is getting REAL, REAL, old - fast.

I stated several places, very clearly, that I spoke directly with Tico Perez at a training on Saturday. Its Mix-and-Match - PERIOD. The updated uniform guides are not out yet, are they? When they come out, if they are different I will read them and comply. Until then, I'll go by a) the Supply Division flier in PDF AND direct answers to my questions from a National Commissioner.

If you still have a problem then I respectfully suggest that you cite a publication that is current that says otherwise if you want to play Uniform Cop.

Thanks.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Just got off the phone with BSA Supply Group and they can make the all-in-one unit numerals in the new Green & Tan colors, they can do the Veteran bar on the new patch, and it costs $3.45 for a 3 numeral patch with Veteran bar. They must be ordered in lots of 12. There MAY be a discount if 96+ are ordered but the woman said she couldn't find out unless she was actually entering a real order.

YIS,

-Robert(This message has been edited by docrwm)

I hate Uniform Police. Bottom line, I've spoken directly with both a Council Commissioner and a National BSA Commisioner and the answers I have gotten have been radically different from those presented by some here.

They each, seperately, stated that the ENTIRE UNIFORM is mix-and-match and that they are TRANSITIONAL. I was also told that they would prefer the Green loops be adopted unit-wide but that there is no requirement to do so. So........

The new uniform is TRANSITIONAL. Any part can be mixed and matched with any other. Since there is no Uniform Inspection sheet for the new uniforms nor a revision of the guide then there is no "official" position on any of this yet.

I'll say it again - the new uniform is Transitional and you can MIX and MATCH anything from the old with the new.

We've decided to keep the old Red numbers for our Pack Adult uniforms. They match the boys uniforms, we have a large supply of special order all-in-one patches, and no one has bothered to buy a new shirt yet anyway ;->

The answer to "Is there a BSA policy" is more complicated than that offered here. Basically, the CC, COR, and even in some limited cases the Unit Commissioner have latitude in removing volunteers whose behavior is not in keeping with the ideals of Scouting. If the behavior is indiscreet (I said IF), and that means that things are occurring in front of the boys then infidelity, etc., could (again I said COULD)be grounds for removal of the volunteer.

That said, talking directly to the volunteer first is recommended. If that does not result in a positive resolution then the Comm Chair is your next stop.

Bottom line is that you can always find another Troop but that is certainly not desirable.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

One comment I heard several times on Saturday from the grizzled veterans was that they were confused about why BSA is not offering ANY new shirts in all natural fabrics.

Funny, I just read a press release on a Special Needs Troop (sorry link is on my computer at home) that has been operating for 30+- years that just got its first Eagle Scouts. One man took 20+ years to make it and said that it was the most important thing in his life because he knew he had earned it!

Things given away are often valued by the recipient at the cost to them - zero.

I would add that the CC is primarily responsible for the Rechartering process and overseeing the administrative side of the Pack/Troop. That means having a good grasp of the Pack/Troop's finances and a working Finance Comm. They should also be a good listener with the ability to provide support and feedback to help others improve their performance within the unit. They should be Boy focused but business minded IMHO.

Went to a training in our Council yesterday. One of our Council Commissioners spoke and the keynote was Tico Perez who is a BSA National Commissioner.

The new uniform is transitional. You can mix and match anything with anything. Period. National would "like" the red loops to be replaced with the green ones as soon as possible but there are no rules on not mixing new with old - again, PERIOD.

I only saw one new uniform yesterday in a room of 200 long-term and dedicated Scouters. It was worn by our Council Commissioner - NOT by Tico!

Hope that helps. And remember, a Scout is Thrifty!

YIS,

-Robert(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Just went to our Councils UC basic training yesterday. One of the biggest things that I heard said by some really hard working Scouters, over and over again and from many of them, is that personally asking for help and participation is the biggest thing that a leader can learn. Our District, like all of BSA I learned yesterday, is down a goodly percentage of Commissioners. One question I had yesterday, which I never actually asked, was Who has been asking whom to do the UC jobs?

Seems relevant to this discussion. Who has been asking folks in the District to meet for coffee and then asking them face-to-face to help out? What about your OA group? What about getting a list of all the WB trained folks in your District? How about asking any Eagles registered in your District?

One last note from a newbie to Scouting - one thing that has been obvious to me is that there are LOTS of terrific people associated with BSA. Many have been with BSA for a LONG time. Those who have tend, tend I said, to be a bit insular. New blood is a good thing. Think about some of the people who are accomplished, energetic, and appear dedicated but who might not already have a gazillon knots or beads around their neck to help out. From your story it seems that folks in your District are staying with the same cast and returning to the same list of folks over and over again without considering new blood, but considering it thoughtfully.

Just my thoughts - best of luck.

YIS,

Robert

"Some of us are trying to get Climb on Safely training put on line since it is not a course that teaches climbing skills, just skills to be a better consumer of climbing programs for their kids."

THANKS! Any training, appropriate for the venue, that can be put online should be IMHO. I really appreciated the new addition of the Weather training online and if the Climb on Safety Training is designed to make us better consumers then it ought to be appropriate for online training. Frankly, there are LOTS of courses that have academic/book components that could have that part online as a prerequisite for subsequently attending the hands on portion in the field.

Taken Directly From "The Ultimate Boy Scouts of America History Site: http://members.aol.com/randywoo/bsahis/h-t.htm#Webelos%20Colors

Webelos Colors

The Webelos colors were introduced with the "new" Webelos program in 1967. This program offered metal pins referred to as Activity Badges for meeting requirements. But whre to put the badges on the uniform that would not detract from other awards and clutter the uniform?

The answer came from Baden-Powell's very first Scout campout at Brownsea Island in England. On August 1, 1907, each boy was provided with a shoulder knot, a long streamer of colored tape. The color of the tape designated the patrol that the boy belonged to.

It is comprised of woven red, gold and a green streamer on a metal bar. The metal bar has a blue backing wiht gold border and letering spelling out Webelos. It is thought that the colors represented the various levels of Scouting; gold for Cub Scouts, green for Boy Scouts, and Red for Explorers. The "assigned" colors changed in 1980 with the Boy Scouts and Explorer colors reversing as new unifroms were introduced.

Originally, there were only 15 activity pins and no more than five pins were to placed on each streamer. The cloth den numeral was removed and a metal numeral with a rounded top was centered on the yellow (gold) streamer. The numerals were not to be used until the Pack had more than one Webelos den.

It is now an optional uniform item. It probably lost popularity due to it being in a place where it could easily be knocked off the unifrom during horseplay. The colors became known as having "weak" attaching pins. If the colors and badges were lost, the cost of replacement was very expensive. Also, the wearing of pins on cowboy hats and ball caps has become popular. The placement of pins on the Webelos cap reflects this trend.

It is worn on the right sleeve and in 1967 was placed below the shoulder seam. As the flag was added to the uniform ,it was worn immediately below and touching the U.S. Flag. The top was squared off to fit better under the flag. Today, if a den number is worn, it is placed under and touching the den number.

The national office was going to eliminate the Webelos Colors in the late 80's, however, an outcry from the field brought them back. Although, in today's Webelos books it is difficult to find pictures or references to the colors.

Our Pack's CO is a Church so its referred to the parents and/or the Youth Minister.