Docrwm

Well, I just got home from RT this evening. Always meet some great people. All the heavy lifters in the District are usually there and tonight wasn't any exception. Problem is that out of the 93 minutes of program over 50 were announcements...........and I'm not counting the awards (even a Heroism award tonight!)

I hate to ask - thereby showing yet again my ignorance - but what is TDC? Acronyms are great when you are a member but for new members of the club they can be a barrier. Sorry.

EDIT:

Just found it online - Trainer Development Conference.

Good source for Scout related acronyms =

http://www.scoutway.net/scouter/abc.html(This message has been edited by docrwm)

What parts of the training that he had would still be current? None as far as I can tell from my cards.

He needs to take YPT as soon as possible - its online, pretty good too, and is easy to do.

He needs FastStart because not only has the Tiger program changed dramatically (I had someone give me, very kindly, all their old Tiger materials last year - BOY was it misleading!!!) but so have MANY of the forms, requirements, rules, etc., etc. in Cub Scouting more generally. It too is online, pretty easy to do, and will update him on a couple of things.

He needs CSLST so he can have a general handle on advancement and does and don'ts for programming today.

Then there are the more advanced trainings, or specific trainings, like BALOO, BBs & Archery, Safety Afloat, Swim Safety, etc. which have all been "updated" in the past couple of years from what I can tell from the old literature.

I really appreciate the time and effort that folks put into Roundtable. District level, from what I feel I have learned in the past 12 months, is the actual operational level for getting meaningful boy-related things accomplished. In our District that is the level at which all the Cub camping originates. Its the level at which two of the three most significant events, based on the feedback from the boys in my Den, were implemented (our local Memorial Day Flag Placement and our Family Camping events). However, I also think that there needs to be a balance between teaching the old hands the same thing for the umteeth time and teaching the new folks, like me, it for the first time.

My impression of Roundtable is that there are many who go regularly. There is a subset that is the in-group that does most of the heavy lifting and has for a long time. They can occassionally respond with "we've covered that". This reaction can turn off newcomers, who you don't see sticking around as often as many would like from what I've been told.

I also agree that announcements are best left to email and handouts. I go to benefit from the accumulated knowledge base of the others present in learning my evolving role as a Den Leader.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Thanks guys. You are reinforcing for me my own initial reactions.

I like doing the DL stuff with the boys but have to say that 5-8 seems ideal to me. I had two more parents email me today about the Den. That would be 10.

I have an email in to the CC and CM. They are both planning on being at Roundtable tomorrow so I hope to talk with them then or immiedately afterward (even if I have to buy ;->).

"I still liked it better in the 1960's."

Couldn't agree more (except for the Medical advances and a few other minor things).

Seriously, I thought about this all summer as I watched my 7 year old son. When I was his age it was precisely as you described - I was out exploring the woods around our suburban home, trekking along our "river", making forts, figuring out how to cross the "river" without getting wet, etc. He's not allowed out of the yard without permission, a bodyguard, etc. It's very sad IMHO.

That's why I see Cub Scouts as even more important today then when I was a kid. I have encouraged our families to participate in ALL the outdoor activities that are available. We did Family Camping twice last year, my family did Cub World for another day at the Scout Reservation. We visited the Nature Center, etc. As the boys in my, now, Wolf Den get older I hope to do more and more with them to fill in for what happened in my life in the 60's naturally and without adult sponsorship, organization, or supervision.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

I was the new-guy last year in our Pack. We had 2 Tiger Dens. The other DL was a former Life Boy Scout, really dynamic, seemed really on top of things, and did some terrific Go-See-eM's. He has resigned.

My Den had 5 boys. All got their Tiger Badge and most earned multiple activity beads and 6-12 belt slides last year. We went Family Camping twice for 2 1/2 days each. We led the local parade, etc. Generally I think we had a good year.

Now we're Wolves and my son and another recruited 2 new Scouts. One transferred in from the other Den because of scheduling and one of mine went to the other Den for the same stated reason. One boy joined a Pack at his Church closer to his home. So, I have 6 boys in the Den now with 3 from last year and 3 new to our group.

Last night at Pack I got approached by the former Den Leader about his son joining our Den. Another parent also approached me for the same reason. The other Den had 9 registered boys last year and should have the same again this year. Unfortunately, they have no registered leader and have not met yet this year. I asked the CM and CC about this but have not gotten a reply yet.

I'm not opposed to more boys in the Den but if I were to get all of them it would be around 15 boys! Top that off with my Asst DL is the father of the boy that moved to another Pack and I'm the only registered leader for our Den at the moment (although I hear that one of the new Scouts father is an Eagle so I am planning on asking him to "Give back to Scouting" as soon as possible).

HELP!

It doesn't sound like you are running them down, just that you are frustrated. I can understand. Our meetings were much like the one you describe last year. Burned out CM. But this year the fellow that organized our amazing Derby is the CM and our first Pack meeting last night was radically better!

It really comes down to the people. As the new-guy last year I made what suggestions I could but was roadblocked regularly. Got comments on all my training that were not precisely friendly but nothing you could point out as snide either. This year there is a real interest in new ideas, input, and generally more organization.

I think what others have said is true - How much responsibility to you want?

Sounds good to me. The boys ought to be able to earn the Bobcat with the number of meetings and the plan you outline. Remember that for Tigers it is not performance but effort that is what is measured.

Knight wrote:

BALOO was the best part of the Cub Scout training I did. We did lots of hands-on type learning. I actually took BALOO twice and am glad I did - both courses offered different ideas and great ways to make Cub Scout camping better.

However, my wife took a BALOO course and her course was like what you described. The two BALOO courses I did were both at Boy Scout camps; my wife's was at a local church. I think doing BALOO at a camp really adds to the course.

I feel the same way about Wood Badge. I've seen online pictures of quite a few courses where it appears the course is held at a local school. I feel fortunate that my Wood Badge course was held at our Boy Scout camp. Much of my Wood Badge course was held outdoors, including many of our classroom settings. When we were indoors, it was at the camp dining hall. The frequent use of outdoor, camp settings definitely kept my focus on camping and the outdoors.

____________________________________________________________

Many in my Pack have said the same thing. The BALOO that is done by District is consistently reported to be among the best trainings anyone has taken - the one from Council is the version I took. I tried to tell the Council Training Chair, who stopped by, that at the halfway point we had covered only things that a trained leader was already required to have had and had basically wasted half my Saturday. We ended up with 15 minutes for each of the 3 hands-on instructors (literally 15 min each). I felt terrible for the volunteer instructors: one had brought all his cooking materials, gotten there before the break of dawn, set up, cooked for us, and then had 15 minutes to try to tell us about how to cook while camping out and the other had brought all his personal camping gear, set up tents to try to tell us the differences, his different sleeping bags, lanterns, etc., etc. and he had 15 minutes to try to convey meaningful information. BTW, the Cooking guy was the same one that taught my Archery course which was TERRIFIC. If he had been allowed to teach the entire BALOO I am certain it would have been radically better.

My plan is to take it at the next opportunity at District level as while I am technically "approved" to be the BALOO leader on a Pack outing I have NO actual skill acquired nor knowledge that I feel I can rely upon from my "training".

BALOO is the kind of course that I meant when I said that what can be taught academically should ALL be put online in order to standardize it, make its presentation as efficient as possible, and minimize the fiddle-faddle for the volunteers. Then, once you have passed that portion you take the hands-on - or practicum - portion in person with folks that know what they are doing.(This message has been edited by docrwm)

Welcome aboard. I was a new Tiger DL last year - wheww.

The issue of the 5 Areas and 15 activities divided into 3 types of activities has been dealt with well already.

You asked: "Q: Do the Tigers get to earn belt loops or patches too or do we only get the achievement and elective beads? "

There are Belt Loop awards that can add spice to the boys time in Tigers and which can give you a tangible Den distributed award for their involvement in something like the activities you planned for the upcoming A&S Museum trip. Good information on these programs can be found at:

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/a-sindex.asp

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/sports.asp

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/cub-scouts/acad-sports.asp

http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/academics-sports.html

and information on the Astronomy Belt Loop can be found at:

http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/aands-astronomy.html

http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/academics/astronomy.asp

I said I was new to all this in previous postings.

Cub Scout FastStart Aug2007

Youth Protection Aug2007

Faststart Pack Committee Aug2007

FastStart Cubmaster Aug 2007

BB & Archery Instructor Sept2007

CSLST - Tiger Den Leader Sept2007

Staffing the District Committee Oct07

Safe Swim Defense Oct07

Safety Afloat Oct07

Weather Hazards April08

BALOO April08

Scheduled for our Commissioner Conference on Saturday where I understand I can complete the Basic Training (Assoc. Degree in Comm. Science??)

Gotta LOVE the online courses. Best training, both most fun and best information and use of time/resources, was the BB& Archery training without any doubt - folks knew their stuff, made it fun, and taught us well. Worst training - BALOO - wasted time, review of other courses content, limited hands on, activities more appropriate for the den, etc. Most efficient training - the online courses. Generally good content, engaging presentation, reasonably solid questions.

My main recommendation - put all course registration online in the national database if you are going to require 100% trained so that the trained person can a) review what is recorded, b) add training with unique identifiers from the course, and c) print out an official list as needed. As a corollary to that - put as many courses as possible online thereby increasing access, uniformity of content, and decreasing the burden on volunteers. I realize that many courses have to have a hands on component. However, there are plenty that do not require any hands on component. Figure out which fall in each category and then put ALL the ones that require no hands on online. Next, if a course has academic material that should be reviewed/mastered prior to the hands on then have the academic portion online so that it can be completed PRIOR to the hands on part.

Just some thoughts from someone new to this who has spent a lifetime being trained and training others across several professions and modes of training.

Its a bit of a stretch for Councils and National to require 100% trained if their own records are in such incredibly poor shape. The most important conclusion that I draw from the posts here is to keep ALL my training cards, scan them in so I have an electronic back-up, and have them with me in situations where they may be needed and/or required.

For those in areas where this standard is to be applied for recharter - perhaps you should present copies of all signed training cards for each registered leader as an attachment to your recharter packet - just in case....

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Really sorry but insignia MUST be changed if you buy a new uniform as they have removed the red-based insignia like the "Trained" patch and you can only buy the new green one in many locations (sound of defunct horse being beaten in the background).

As for the shoulder loops - the red ones are gone. You can only buy the green ones - BUT you can still buy old shirts from National Supply. So, if you buy an old shirt you will end up with green trained patch and green should loops for it.

What our National Scout Shop manager said was that they don't want you mixing insignia - no red with green. But, since its a transitional uniform there will be loads of mix and match for a while and even more confusion.

The new insignia/uniform guide is due out when....last I read it was 9/15. Again, who released the new uniforms before the official guidance was available on how to wear them according to the rules???

I'm gonna beat a dead horse here because I was a bit annoyed about the statement that someone was "a little suspicious" of the statement that our Scout Shop had been directed to destroy all red-based insignia like "Trained" patches.

Well, on the Scout-L listserv others have been posting the same thing, here's an example:

"At Roundtable last night they also were displaying the new uniform. The fella from the Scout Shop repeated that our current uniforms were good "forever", however he also mentioned that National also requested that they (Scout Shop) return all the red shoulder loops, therefore green loops will be all that is readily available in the future. So red loops are not dead, long live the red loops (for as long as you can keep them presentable)."

Not needing red loops as a CS DL I had not noticed this at our shop but it fits with what I was told.

Thanks for everyone taking time to discuss my concerns. They remain.

I do not want to sell tickets to your events. Problem is, discouraging others from viewing them can be taken loads of ways. It was often a defense in the past, after a problem, for folks to say things like "Well, they could have come and seen it for themselves if they had wanted to..." As for the "You're not a member so you don't get it" answer (paraphrasing)....please. I've been a member of several secret societies and fraternities. I "get" what secrecy is all about. Its just that it is completely incompatible with BSA's position on the subject.

Don't get me started with issues of voting and how the LAW said every citizen over X in my State could register and vote. Its still heard in places here "Oh, of course they have the right to vote....." but then there are impediments in the way for certain folk.

Private, mystique, etc., etc., etc. are merely ways of more politely saying "You're not welcome and we don't want you to know."

I truly did not start this to offend anyone. But, when the initial issue was whether or not someone from another lodge could actually view the ceremonies at a lodge not their own, it does indeed indicate a certain mindset about the ceremonies being private.

All I can hope is that someone reading this will get it. It seems to me that the focus of OA on service, doing for others, etc. is perfectly in line with my personal and religious beliefs. Those are things I want my son to value. Here's the bottom line in my humble opinion - if, as an official activity under BSA auspices, one has to ask permission to attend a ceremony ITS NOT PUBLIC. Its sort of like being pregnant, you're either pregnant or your not - its either genuinely open or its not.

I do NOT believe I took the comments here, and on the rest of this OA list, out of context at all.

Yes, there are some who agree with me and who are in OA, and I am always happy to see folks who understand that secrecy is a thing of the past with BSA.

However, there is clearly a component here that wants to reserve some mystique and that implies privacy and/or secrecy. I understand wanting it to be a surprise for the boys - got it, moving on. I do NOT understand in any way whatsoever the apparent negative reaction to allowing others to observe.

As for your assertion that I took things out of context: What started this whole thread? A question about someone from another OA Lodge being allowed to observe for Gosh sake!! If there are folks here and in OA who are nervous about other "Arrow Men" seeing their ceremonies that makes me worried - PERIOD. If there are OA folks who don't want someone who is IN YOUR GROUP to see what you are doing then what do you think their real reaction to a non-OA parent observing is going to be - really?

Aren't there activities for which a Pack MUST have a CPR trained person in attendance?

I am not OA. I have not posted here before. However, that the question has been raised and debated about whether non-OA members can come to ANY of your ceremonies disturbs me very deeply. I, for one, really respect that BSA has a NO SECRETS policy. Either OA is a part of BSA and abides by that or.....

As for the, rather caviler, suggestion that "just show them the ceremony manuals". Gee, and if they have worries as parents do you honestly believe that seeing your manuals will put their worries at rest? I'm not for keeping my son from experiencing things for himself - I want him to be a strong, straight, man of character. However, I can tell you quite frankly that reading the posts here has raised my concerns about OA not quieted them.

Locally I've been told that our Cubs may not participate in any activity at our Aquatics based because it is considered to be running water not Flat Water. This, again as I've been led to believe, includes swimming. However, I can find nothing in the GSS section #II on Aquatics Safety that prohibits swimming by Cubs in non-flat water.

On the issue of boating, I agree that activities afloat are not appropriate under BSA guidelines for a Pack but per the training I received in Safety Afloat they are also never ok in the location described for the proposed camping - even if sponsored by a District or Council.

Canoeing and Rafting and CUBS SCOUTS is to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices. Does not include trips or expeditions and is not to be conducted on running water (i.e., rivers or streams) ....and I might add the Ocean.

We had a similar question come up in the past. Don't forget another factor in what you select - something the recipient would actually want.

BTW, we did not come up with a viable alternative.

Ah.....Atheist Boy Scout is an oxymoron. BSA has consistently won Federal Court cases involving the requirement that all registered members of scouting (adult and boy) profess a faith in a G*d.

Thanks, as I said I'm at work. But the commercial operators part makes sense and rings a vague bell.

Would an outing on an island that requires a commercial ferry have a) any safety issues as one would be isolated and b) wouldn't activities related to water like swimming and boating be off limits even though tempting?

You have to be very careful about going on any BSA approved event with Cubs that involves using or crossing running water (in a boat). Perhaps others here are more versed in this but when I did BALOO training last year it seemed clear to me that boats and running water (as opposed to flat water) is a no-no for Cubs. An outing using a ferry and water with a current would fit that restriction in my book if my memory serves me right (at work and don't have my BALOO manual here).

Several years ago joining and advancement requirements for Cub Scouting were changed to a grade basis (with age as backup). As a refresher, here are some age/grade requirements. The idea was to keep boys together in Dens who were together in classes. Keep in mind that grade is the primary determination and age is the backup (note the word "or"):

* TIGER CUBS -- In the first grade, (or 7 years old)

* CUB SCOUTS (Wolves and Bears) -- In the second and third grade, (or 8 or 9 years old)

* WEBELOS SCOUTS -- In the fourth and fifth grade, (or 10 years old)

* ARROW OF LIGHT -- Six months since completing the fourth grade, or six months since turning 10.

* BOY SCOUTS -- Completed the fifth grade, or age 11, or have earned the Arrow of Light.

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