DeanRx

Eamonn-

I find it funny:

1) Gays allowed - Most all European, Scouts Canada, and I believe Mexico - this is a non issue... they already allow for either gays or local option.

2) God in the oath... well most of the European scouting organizations are already much more progressive on this front.

3) Co-ed - YUP, have a scout fair day every year here in San Diego that has Mexican units showup. All co-ed, down to the 1st graders. I believe the same is true for Canada and many of the European countries as well.

I agree the change will come.

I agree that no matter what level the change is, some will be happy, some will be unhappy, and some will never be happy.

Just thought I'd point out that as a part of a WORLD-WIDE movement that BEGAN outside the United States (hence it was not "our" invention), we are in the minority on all three counts with regards to addimission policy. Some think this is good, others, not so much... but we ARE a data point outlier in the world wide Boy Scout bell curve. Few within BSA realize this, or choose to ignore it, because what happens outside the US with scouting is not any concern to American scouters.

As a post script - most folk's issue with a "private" organization determining its membership policy is NOT the issue. It becomes an issue when said organization has its national charter with the U.S. congress (Although I'd argue we could do better as an organizaiton at finding a more trustworthy CO than the a-holes in Washington). And even moreso when the "private" organization gets a good chunk of funding from public sources... thats the real (and IMHO very valid) rub most people make with the membership policies.

Dean

Beavah-

Its also because of the inherent bias in the situation...

If you speak out against the draconian practice of suspecting everyone... then you yourself must be suspect! (as was pointed out in the OP thread). After all, its about protecting kids, so WHY would you be against it unless YOU want to hurt them !! or at least don't CARE about them as much as I do... goes the thinking.

Its akin to making a logical statement against a minority (even if its supported by data) - you must be racist.

Or more timely - the razor blades in Halloween candy scary we put in our kids all the time.

Add to this the fact there are millions of $$ and many jobs created by scaring the begesus out of people... and no wonder the fear gets propogated and inflated.

When the data point(s) have a perception of one side being highly emotionally charged or very terrible for you and the other side has the perception of no harm in being overzealously applied... the arguement gets skewed from the start - regardless of what the data might reveal or what the subject being studied happens to be.

Dean

Yeah Beavah-

I came up with 1 out of 1000 and 90% that were actually abusers with the 10% being false positives... that would mean somewhere around 0.09%, actually less than 1/10th of 1%.

I think that for all the good the BSA does in getting the word out to be vigilant and have mandatory training - it does an even better job at scaring the crap out of everyone.

There needs to be some "common sense" applied. Or maybe some role playing senerios in which a good response is discussed.

I have seen YPG violations. Most very minor. Everyone I've ever seen, the person was unaware or forgot or didn't think it was a YPG issue.

Most often its a one-on-one thing... i.e. adult going to the latrine with a lone scout because they both have to go. Or more common, an adult leader walking into a bathroom that already has a scout in it at a unit function. Technicially a violation, but would you report it?

The driving in a car without a second scout often comes up. Especially true when dropping off multiple scouts at multiple homes if your own youth is not with you.

Even Scoutmaster's conferences... how to have them be "private" without putting scout or scouter at risk for a valid or fabricated clime of abuse.

All are sticky situations that require attention and a unit consensus on how they are to be addressed. NONE, in my book need to be elevated to the DE or SE, unless a leader has been "reminded" repeatedly and chooses NOT to follow the quidelines.

Dean

OK, throwing some non-BSA approved liquid fire accelerant on the proverbial campfire here...

Fred, What ya gonna do when Johnny shows up to the scout meeting with Mom's BOYFRIEND driving him because he lives with the lad and mom is working late or home with a younger sibling? Dude is NOT related to the youth, not even as an extended family member.

What ya gonna do on cub scout family campouts? Gonna require everyone to bring in a copy of their marriage certificate before you allow the youth to tent in with the family, just in case mom's boyfriend comes along on the campout?

You really want to put yourself in the "moral police" mode because according to you these types of things CAUSE child abuse to happen ?!?!?

What about the time I went into the youth only shower (gasp!)at camp because a lad had slipped and may have fractured his wrist in there and the ONLY other unit leader in camp at the time was female. Guess I should have had HER come along into the shower with me so I didn't violate YPG - its OK if she sees 4 or 5 male youth (not her son) in the buff, so long as I'm with her right?

We make judgements, we are asked to make judgements... its part of being a responsbile adult. I agree that someone who routinely violates YPG or downplays its importance COULD be a problem. However, its a very quick jump to ASSUME this means they are more likely to be a child molester. In both my personal and professional expierince - the opposite seems to be true.

1) An abuser doe NOT like to draw attention to themselves and their activities. They would likely go out of their way to show other adults they are NOT in violation of any guidelines, as not to arouse suspicision.

2) An abuser looks for opportunities to isolate a youth and gain trust. Pretty hard to abuse a youth in a moving car while you are driving!! Maybe someone could do some grooming, but there is a time limit, unless the drive is unusually long.

3) You better damn well have some pretty good evidence before you go calling the DE or SE on every little YPG issue. Otherwise, you are more likely to be known as the council-wide "chicken little" at best, and at worst open yourself for a defamation lawsuit. Get everyone kicked out and pretty soon you are the only leader left.

Its one thing to take a fellow leader aside and say, "Hey, probably not a good idea to do x,y,z... it could be viewed as a youth protection violation..." Its totally another to start unsubstatiated whitch hunts against fellow adult leaders.

It'd advise that you might want to ask one or two other "leaders" in your unit for their take on an issue before moving ahead with reporting up the chain of command to see if THEY think its as serious as you do... but I fear folks like you have two views on this issue - yours, which is right and someone else's who is wrong. Afterall, you are the self appointed sherrif, judge and jury on the subject.

Yeah,

The G2SS is all over the place on this one... as I read it, their intent is to NOT have scouts pointing firearms or simulated firearms at another human, well, except if they are part of a re-enactment or part of a ride-along training with law enforcement... squirt guns are supposedly not allowed - but my son has attended both district and council events in the summer that had water gun fights as part of the program ?!!??

Just about as clear as the mud created by the squirt gun fight if you ask me!

I understand WHAT BSA is / was trying to do with the policy, but you can't have it both ways... I'll never understand WHY lazer tag or paintball is not an approved activity... thank you over-reacting policy makers and the fallout of Columbine. Funny that we are supposed to be TEACHING the youth to make good decisions in life, but can't expect them to know or understand the difference between a toy, a water gun, a laze / paintball, and a REAL firearm and how to handle and use each differently with respect to their potential for injury / death.

It all comes down to supervision, IMHO. The boy with a wrist rocket at a unit function is no different than a kid showing up with a bowie knife or a chain saw... if the GROWN UPS in attendance don't stop him and take it from him, then its a supervision problem.

As for a dad threatening to quit over his son not being able to have a toy gun at a campout - fine, don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out the door. I don't respond well to threats from my children or my employees and I sure as hell would have a much shorter tolerance for an adult when I'm in a volunteer role.

I think there is a HUGE difference between allowing toy guns and tolerating boys picking up sticks and pinecones and playing "guns and grenades". The first is advocating the activity and the second is letting boys be boys and at least expecting them to use their imagination a little bit to make the game "fun". Also, very unlikely that someone is going to mistake a twig or pinecone for a real firearm, the same cannot be said for some "toy" guns.

I would definately like to see BSA national revisit their stance on this issue and maybe make the policy a little more clear.

Squirt gun fights - fine.

Lazer tag / paintball - OK if over 12 years old

Air Soft - not sure where this fits, or if it should be allowed, maybe similar to paintball, so long as adequate eye protection is used... no one is going to die from a air soft hit... welt, maybe.

Civil War reenactment / law enforcement training - OK if over 14 years old

They do the tiered age thing with other activities, no reason they couldn't do the same with the toy firearm vs real weapon issue.

Yeah,

The G2SS is all over the place on this one... as I read it, their intent is to NOT have scouts pointing firearms or simulated firearms at another human, well, except if they are part of a re-enactment or part of a ride-along training with law enforcement... squirt guns are supposedly not allowed - but my son has attended both district and council events in the summer that had water gun fights as part of the program ?!!??

Just about as clear as the mud created by the squirt gun fight if you ask me!

I understand WHAT BSA is / was trying to do with the policy, but you can't have it both ways... I'll never understand WHY lazer tag or paintball is not an approved activity... thank you over-reacting policy makers and the fallout of Columbine. Funny that we are supposed to be TEACHING the youth to make good decisions in life, but can't expect them to know or understand the difference between a toy, a water gun, a laze / paintball, and a REAL firearm and how to handle and use each differently with respect to their potential for injury / death.

It all comes down to supervision, IMHO. The boy with a wrist rocket at a unit function is no different than a kid showing up with a bowie knife or a chain saw... if the GROWN UPS in attendance don't stop him and take it from him, then its a supervision problem.

As for a dad threatening to quit over his son not being able to have a toy gun at a campout - fine, don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out the door. I don't respond well to threats from my children or my employees and I sure as hell would have a much shorter tolerance for an adult when I'm in a volunteer role.

I think there is a HUGE difference between allowing toy guns and tolerating boys picking up sticks and pinecones and playing "guns and grenades". The first is advocating the activity and the second is letting boys be boys and at least expecting them to use their imagination a little bit to make the game "fun". Also, very unlikely that someone is going to mistake a twig or pinecone for a real firearm, the same cannot be said for some "toy" guns.

I would definately like to see BSA national revisit their stance on this issue and maybe make the policy a little more clear.

Squirt gun fights - fine.

Lazer tag / paintball - OK if over 12 years old

Air Soft - not sure where this fits, or if it should be allowed, maybe similar to paintball, so long as adequate eye protection is used... no one is going to die from a air soft hit... welt, maybe.

Civil War reenactment / law enforcement training - OK if over 14 years old

They do the tiered age thing with other activities, no reason they couldn't do the same with the toy firearm vs real weapon issue.

Poncho liner + OD green wool blanket + sleeping bag bivy sack = great night sleep in almost any weather. I add an emergency blanket on top if need be when its really cold. I also take my closed foam sleeping pad (only ounces and my back is getting too old for being right on the turf).

Use that and a tarp with my hiking poles as a lean-to for most packpacking situations. 6 lightweight tent pegs for tiedowns...

Total weight for sleeping and shelter is no more than 4 and 1/2 pounds.

Nice thing with the lean-to, I have built a reflector fire up against a boulder on a really cold (snowy) winter night and was shedding layers to stay cool in the night!

You can stay very lightweight, warm, and versitile without spending a ton on $$ on equipment. I did spring for a nice Big Anges waterproof bivy sack - as I can handle being a little cold, but I HATE being wet!

Dean

I don't know about a quilt, but I have a poncho liner I've had since my active duty days and I rarely go camping without it. Even in warm climates and temps, I use it as a sleeping pad or roll it up and use it as a camp pillow.

dean

There's a very easy solution to the issue:

"Thank you for making me aware of the issue. Please have the parent(s) contact me directly at . I'd like to be able to address DIRECTLY any concerns they might have with how I am running the MB for xxxx."

If they call, be polite, but be ready to answer questions about given requirements or WHY you do things the way do you.

If you never hear from them... then keep on doing your best at being a good MBC.

Maybe do a self review to make sure you are not inadvertantly "adding" to a requirement, adn adjust acordingly if need be.

Dean

jeffrey H-

I agree completely... However, the pendulum of "safety" has swung so far to one side that we might as well bubble wrap the kids and only let them look at pictures of outdoor adventures...

When little red wagons and squirt gun water fights are off limits, something is far amiss in the "keeping kids safe" category, IMHO...

dean

With my appologies to the OP for pulling this thread more off topic...

Yes, BP and SP, I agree with your assesment regarding classrom vs. outdoor adventure - it is a huge issue.

The BIG 4 issues I see affecting BSA enrollment and retention:

1) Lack of recruitment access, due to many factors. However, mostly due to school's increased policy regulating who and what can be sent home or who can come on campus. This is aggrivated by BSA's recent reaffirmation of its non-inclusive membership policies. This leaves civic organizations and churches as places to recruit.

2) Lack of quality ADVENTURE program. Too much classroom, "discuss, explain,.." and too little "do, show, build...". This is partly due to laziness of leaders at many levels, some of it is due to fear of litigation with activities that once were deemed OK, but are now off limits. Some is even due to well intentioned program additions such as LNT. Can't have 50 boys cutting down branches to build survival shelters for a weekend campout... not really LNT, is it? Don't get me started on no trenching around a tent when camping in the rain... of actually building the pioneering latrine with an earth trench dug under it for a campout - not gonna happen.

3) Paperwork / training - while most of this is good - I wonder what its going to be like for the next generation of leaders. In speaking with my father (who was an ASM for me as a boy), he can't believe the amount of crap paperwork (tour permit, health forms, talent release form, permission slip, shooting sports form) required to take the kids on a simple one weekend campout! I generation ago, it was a background check for adults and a signed permission slip for the boy. if the slip was signed, he was cleared to swim, shoot, pioneering, whatever they unit was doing that weekend!! The paperwork is a choke point and some units just avoid outings (or dumb them down) because its too much of a hassle, might as well have a "lock in" at the church.

The training issue is a big one too. Hard to get "certified" adult leaders when almost every month national comes out with a new webinar that MUST be redone every two years or the council won't sign off on the tour permit. Has this made scouts safer? I don't know. I do KNOW it makes adults reluctant to volunteer because they barely have time to devote to the unit. They do NOT have time for BALOO, IOLS, God forbid Woodbadge when most if not all are just checking the box coursework that really does very little to near nothing to increase safety OR the adult's knowledge base on the subject being taught.

4) THE BIG ONE - Finally, fear of litigation has paralized the ADVENTURE of scouting and relagated 95% of it to car camping, hiking, and in rare cases watercraft. No red wagons, no pioneering projects above 6 feet, no rope bridges over water features, fire restrictions, no lazer tag / no paintball, NO PATROL CAMPING WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION - heck no patrol ANYTHING with just the PL in charge... all equals an adventure that SUCKS and the youth KNOW it. Maybe not when they join, but they figure it out REAL fast by the age of about 14. Once they go on family vacation and go skiing behind a powerboat (or get to drive the powerboat). Go inter tubbing and white water rafting in currents G2SS does not allow. They go to the climbing gym and go beyond G2SS allowed levels in they're first two visits. They go to the range with their friends / parents and shoot AR type weapons / handguns / etc... some shoot crossbows - all a big No No in BSA land. Same with lazer tag, paintball, or airsoft wars.

Around here - many go to the desert and are driving ATV's or dirt bikes for recreation or even racing by the time they are 12-14. Very hard to complete when BSA won't let a kid TOUCH anything motorized (save maybe a pilot program with PWC's in a very few select councils).

I'm not suggesting that BSA throw caution to the wind and open up everything with little to no oversight - BUT we have to be realistic with what we are competing with.

Our brand of "adventure" is hard to stack up against, ATV's, dirt bikes, contact football, Lacrosse, the miriad of martial arts now offered, hunting, etc... all of those things are big draws to the youth we serve, but all are off limits in a BSA program.

I think back to when I quit scouting as a youth... it was because I had discovered more "daring" things in life... Why when I camped with my family, I could drive the boat and tow my sister skiing, but at BSA I got a canoe or row boat? How come we could take the motorcross bike camping with us as a family, but at the same state campground on a scout outing, it wasn't allowed? How come on a winter campout with my dad (and my scoutmaster at the time), we could bow hunt wild turkey the entire weekend with compound bows and broadtip arrows. BSA camp we could shoot archery with a recurve at paper targets - Yea!

I wish I had stuck it out and made Eagle, but I also understand why I did not. You factor in the above and add on to it the fact I discovered that females had boobs at about the same time in life... forget it - it was over. I was on to bigger and what I percieved to be better things at the time.

Baden-

I hear what you are saying, but folks at national and pros of all ranks at the council level NEED to here this. They NEED to understand and appreciate WHAT the national stance on addimitance DOES to units at least at SOME of the local levels.

You can debate the merit of the policy all you want, but the truth of the matter is national's policy DOES cause trouble for local units, and not just in the liberal area(s) like California.

I will not be quiet and I will not stand down until BSA changes its policy. While I do not agree with the "lifestyle", I neither agree with discrimination. It needs to be a mutual respect to agree to disagree with all youth welcomed into scouting.

If our generation fails this - I am convinced there will not be a 200th anniversary of scouting. The BSA will die at its own hand in the next generation. Our children will not tolerate the policy as it now stands. The failed policy will accomplish what the Great Depression, two world wars, and countless other national and societal challenges could not - the end of BSA. Why? Because we will render ourselves obsolete to the youth we strive to serve.

Dean

MBC for 5 badges.... 3 of them the citizenships.... and you wonder WHY you never get a call?

While I completely support the intent of the citizenship MB's they are the most boring, crappy badges out there. If they were not eagle required, I highly doubt any scout would do them. While the content is important for a scout to know, the method is terrible - just more classroom homework = the last thing a scout wants to do.

As fort the OP - I'll have to look at the website when I get home (no FB from work), but I find the whole para-military / scout connection humorous... being that the founder was a military man, and how much BSA likes to use the stats on how many astronauts and military cadets / generals were scouts as youth... you can't have it both ways. Use the machismo and patriotism of military service as a recruiting tool, but then disavow that you are a para-military organization.

I echo the setiments regarding the firearms policy from BSA. calibre and shooting only at human figures "in a re-enactment" only and then banning squirt guns is policical correctness run amok. The fact you can't take scouts to lazer tag or paintballing is just plain stupid. We (BSA) wimps out when compared to most other youth activities at this point in time. A hike? Boring... A game of tracking the fugitive? great fun!

Now, I'm not advocating for SEREs training for Boy Scouts, but I see no reason a scout couldn't or shouldn't get the expirience of firing an AR type firearm. I got corrected on the range by a BSA rangemaster for refering to the "rifle" as a weapon. Hey, I'm ex-military and if it can kill someone, its a weapon and should be treated as such.

When I was a scout - we had a "survival minicamp" as part of our local council camp. Those boys who wanted to (usually 1st class and up) - would go on a three day susrvival hike and live off the land... we ate berries and fished in the local river. At the end of day #2, we were brought to an encampment with live chickens (provided by a local rancher). We were expected to catch, slaugter, prep, and eat our chicken in two man teams! (one bird for every two scouts) I can't even imagine the outrage if a local council camp tried something like this today!

I agree 100% with Basement... a day on a well run range is far safer than a day on the mountainbike trails!

Baden P writes,

"Have you tried talking to your DE about approaching the schools for you? It was one of my duties as a DE to talk to school administrators each year so the volunteers or I could set up a display table at lunch or after school and pass out flyers. The DE represents the National BSA and school leaders were always open to talking with me. In some schools I had my GSUSA counterpart with me and the schools allowed us to actually hold an assembly just before lunch where the kids could see and touch some of the equipment, crafts,PWD cars, badges, etc. that they would earn as scouts.

I know times have changed with schools but with the right people initially approaching the school you might be surprised at the results. In my five years as a DE all the school districts were open to us at the beginning of each year. It should NOT be all on the volunteers shoulders in talking to schools. "

Not in MY neck of the woods !! The ONLY people local PUBLIC schools will even interact with anymore are VOLUNTEERS !! You show up as a pro-scouter and state you are representing national, and you're likely to be disinvited from campus, followed by an earful from any and all school administrators regarding BSA's recent "reaffirmation" regarding their policy stance on joining requirements.

My son's grade school has a principle that is in a "non-traditional" relationship. He still allows the unit to use school grounds to meet, and even lets us do a recruit booth at back to school night. I have a very good rapport with him and if someone showed up stating they represent national or national's views, he'd likely call the cops to have them removed from his campus!! He, unlike BSA understands the difference between scouting at the unit level and national's misguided, prejudiced policies...

DE shows up, CE shows up - they're gonna get the whole unit booted off campus - period.

The pros made their policy bed - now they can sleep in it... thankfully, some more open minded vols and open minded school admin. see the benefit of keeping scouting availible to youth despite nearsighted national policy.

I would NEVER claim to represent national scouting at a public school facility in SoCal... you're just asking for trouble (and an uninvite).

Just to clarify...

He was doing store-front sales, not going door to door. I was within 5 feet of him, sitting in my camp chair, reading a book when both passer-byes happened to drop their comments.

They were both snarky, but didn't stop walking, so I figure they just wanted to get their dig in, feel good about their opinion, and move on with life. That's fine.

Son just kind of stammered, "Ok, thanks anyways..." to both of them.

I chalk it up to a life lesson and a door openned for a good conversation with my kid.

My larger concern is for scouts who may or may not be selling with an adult in close proximity who get a verbal barrage and don't understand the context or HOW to appropriately respond to such an encounter.

Seems to me, we almost need to add this to the YPG training we do with the boys, so they are not blindsided if and when it happens to them. Its a sad fact of the society we live in today when adults with adult points of view see the need to verbally lash out at a youth to get their point across. Just think it might be a good idea to arm your scouts with some knowledge, so they can understand the other person's perspective (you can debate the merit all you want), and have a canned response at the ready. Said response should be freindly and courteous... like, "Ok, thanks anyways..."

Funniest part of it the whole encounter... lady walking up behind the 2nd person to snark at my kid bought EXTRA popcorn because she overheard the conversation and commented to me how well the lad handled himself... I thought that was pretty great.

So, my scout (11y/o) first year in Boy Scouts, Tenderfoot was doing store front popcorn sales this weekend. Had TWO seperate individuals snidely comment to him on BSA membership policies.

His sales pitch, "Would you like to buy some delicious popcorn to help support local Boy Scouts?"

Met with, "When BSA supports equality, then I'll support the Boy Scouts." and "I don't support prejudiced organizations."

Now, most everyone on the forums KNOWS my personal feelings on the subject. I'm all for local option and wish national would just let the issue go to save face and remove all the legal battles from taking $$ away from being used on program...

However, HOW or WOULD out even respond to an ADULT making such a comment to a YOUTH attempting to fund raise?

I'll admit it pissed me off a bit, especially seeing my own son speared for a position he has no knowledge about, has no input into, and frankly has a family that disagrees with the BSA national policy, but sees more good than harm from BSA (and the lad LOVES scouting), so I would never pull him from the program over the issue.

It left my son pretty rattled and it DID lead to a pretty interesting conversation on the drive home regarding nature vs nurture and its effect on sexual orientation. He asked me if I thought people were born gay, or if they "became" gay because of influences in their upbringing... Made the old man think hard and choose his words carefully on that car ride !!

Anyways, what say the masses... do you even respond? If so, How? I understand and respect someone's opinion as being opposed to mine, but I don't understand an adult's need to brow beat an 11 year old over a membership policy the kid doesn't even understand and quite frankly has no bearing on his scouting at the local level. Pisses me off at BOTH the individual that brings it up AND the organization who puts a kid in that position by virture of what I see as a short sighted policy.

I don't see the big deal with doing SOME requirements of a MB at a meeting, if your meetings have patrol time worked into them and a particular patrol wants to meet with a MBC for their time, then fine. Or even individual scouts meeting with their MBC to check-off achievements for a particular badge.

I don't see why a scout can't set-up / talk with MBC about the planning of the MB at the scout meeting. So long as it doesn't turn into a "classroom" meeting with a MB lecture for all scouts, although that might be a good way to trudge through the 3 Citizenship MB's for the most part...too much discuss and writing in those, too little DOing, but thats another post.

Finally, anything that COULD be done outside of an indoor setting SHOULD be. Cooking MB, Camping MB (don't laugh) - should not take place in the church library. The prep part (what you are cooking, where and when you are going camping, development or gear list, etc...) could be done that way.

I think its an important aspect of the troop meeting, so long as it does NOT become the main focus of the overall meeting.

Dean

Eagledad - "See NJ, the frog doesnt think the water is hot.

Barry"

Not sure what this means, I guess I'm the frog?

qwase - "That said, if your profession is not one where you'd bring your kid, you probably have some thinking to do"

Really, the cop should take jr. to the homicide investigation scene? The surgeon should take Jr. into the OR? The corrections officer, the pyschologist that counsels suididal pateints, shall I go on... not sure of the correlation there...

Tampa Trutle - "I realized this once when I was starting to go to a *ahem* "special store" for a certain outfit for my lovely wife. "I can't go in there! I am a scout leader."

Why not? Was what you were going to do illegal? Now, I wouldn't condone wearing your scout shirt into sure an establishment, but if that's your thing with you and the Mrs., that's your business.

Eagledad - "So she waited in the car to see what was going on thinking it might be someone trying to break into the building through her window. After a few minutes, two teenage boys walked out of the corner pulling up their pants."

Now, I agree with you on this. However, I find it interesting that those that believe one should wait until the confines of marriage to become "active" expect their view to be respected, but do not offer the same respect to those who have a different view point. The fact these two youth were in an ally committing a homosexual act speaks less to me about the moral decline of society, and more about a society that condems these youth into hiding and shameful exploration of their sexuality because they don't have support from home, church, community to have an open discussion about HUGE issues in their life!

qwazse - "And regarding the polished view of Thai bar girls, I met a woman who was widowed thanks to AIDS from one such "respectable" sex worker."

Nowhere in my post was I advocating that prostitution is a "clean" business, nor respectable. My point regarding Thialand and the Buhdist religion was to point out that one religions taboo is another religion's acceptable practice.

nldscout - "Funny, that this should appear on the news at this time. Last saturday morning at about 230 in the morning I got called out to do an arraignment on a Felony Drunk Driver, when I asked what she did for a living(part of bail determination) she stated she was a dancer in a gentlemans club that is in the same town as the one in the story. She was a very nice lady except for the fact she blew .17 and had her 2 kids in the car."

Would it have been better if she was a JUDGE and blew a .17 with her two kids in the car? Not sure what the heck here means of employment have to do with the fact she was driving drunk and endangering the lives of herself, her offspring, and other people. We had a Cardinal from the Catholic Church blow a .23 at a DUI check point here in San Diego a few weeks back. Should probably go light on him... respectable profession and all...

Bottom line - all this is WHY we must remember BSA is NOT a Judeo-Christian organization. Yes, they are VERY cozy with a few denominations, but outside or the gays and athiest policies, the church(es) do NOT run the BSA. Its also WHY I consider myself to be a spiritual Christian, but rarely (outside of attending some scout functions) step foot inside a church.

The double standard and hypocrisy run too deep for me to put up with anymore.

Dean

I just figure the unit missed out on a sure-fire way to increase attendance at committee meetings and I'm sure there would be no problem getting more boys FATHERS involved in the unit.

Can't wait to see their Pioneering projects at the Troop level

I always find it iteresting:

1) BSA is anti-gay, but also bemoans men (adult or otehrwise) viewing females as objects of desire? teenage boys are horny, who are they supossed to fantisize about then? Don't way you didn't as a youth - or you're a liar.

2) Everyone is so quick to jump on the "mom" in this situation, but as admitted to on this tread, some of the leader "dads" have partaken in the right of passage to the strip club. Why are they still fit to lead? Oh yeah, cause if you tempt us, it HAS to be the female's fault. Hop, skip and jump - you just justified rape.

3) Why should someone / anyone get to pass judgement on what is or is not an acceptable profession for someone to be a scout leader. I've filled out several adult leader apps in my day. It asks about convictions and ask for the OK to do a background check (I assume for pedophile type offenses). It asks for 3 references. NO WHERE on the adult leader application does it ask for you to JUSTIFY your profession as being "leadership" worthy.

We should just go back to banning non-Christian religions and blacks, or other minorities... I sure some out there feel "they" have tainted our ranks.

Chew on this one Barry-

The Buhdists (at least in Thialand) don't view PROSTITUTION as a dirty or immoral way to earn a living. Been to Thialand, they have Buhdist shrines right in the corner of EVERY bar and EVERY bar has women for sale if you really want the company.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I would not advocate to kick out all Buhdist scouts based on this particular religious view of the "worlds oldest profession". Any yes, a lot of budhists stateside share the same view or are at least VERY tolerant of the view.

Sheesh!

Dean

Yeah,

I wouldn't want my cub son visiting a stripping CM mom at work, just like I wouldn't want him visiting a CM that was a big banker and took TARP funds to pad his own lifestyle, or the CM that's a real estate agent that sells folks properties he knows they have no way of affording, etc... god forbid the CM is a local politician, we KNOW they all have no morals and are sleezy.

I see where you are trying to go with this Eagle, and in general I agree.

However, when does it stop?

Am I an unfit CM because I dole out birth control or Plan B to women who need it in my medical profession? What if I was an Gyn that performed abortions as part of my practice? I'm sure you could find plenty of folks who would support either side of that issue.

Should I let little johnny visit me at my place of employment? Maybe to see how the office works or view and exam room, etc... sure. What about if he sits in on an OB/Gyn exam? Doubt that's a good idea. What about having him sit in on a consult with a couple who is devastated because they have tried and tried to conceive, but are now being told they are out of options and are weighing the choice of a surrogate vs. adoption? Not really a place for a Cub Scout to be haning out, eh?

I get where you're at with your arguement about morality, but I doubt one's profession is a good place to have the barometer on whether one is a fit leader or not.

As for the article, let the courts decide... its more about tax revnue and avoiding it than it is about morality anyways.

Dean

RichardB-

Sorry if I sound a little harsh with regards to the training. Yes, I have helped out with training at both the district and council levels for BALOO and WLOT. Thats why I found it amusing that I was required to do IOLS when I transitioned from cubbie leader to ASM for my son's troop. Seems like a rehash of stuff I've already covered in previous training dates. I also take issue with the "every two years" rule with regards to YPT, safe swim, etc...

I don't disagree that the training is needed, both as a safety issue and to minimize BSA's liability with regards to untrained adult leaders taking scouts into potentially harmful situations. It would just be nice if there was a "test out" option. Like, if you have already completed the training and are due for renewal - then take a 20 question online test. If you pass, you're good for another 2 years, if not THEN sit through the webinar again and test at the end. I'm not a fan of forcing students to retake subject matter they've already mastered. That's all. They're not really learning anything new, just checking the box.

Further, I don't think a mandatory safe driving class is warranted for BSA. However, it WOULD be nice if their was an online review and STANDARDS in place. I understand the # seat belts = # occupants, and no riding in the back of pick-ups, etc...

But what about an online tutorial regarding drowsy driving? What about info regarding route planning and what factors to consider when deciding which roads to tkae? What is an acceptable number of miles per day for a scout caravan to travel? etc... I've seen some pretty aggressive drive plans in my short time in BSA for out of the area trips (i.e. two days travel from San Diego to Philmont) where I question whether thats the best idea to be carting kids that far in that short amount of time, just so you can fit more days on the trail, or there are fewer days adults have to be off work to make the trip a reality.

I don't think anyone out there is purposefully putting kids at risk, but I also do not find much (if any) guidance on the subject from BSA national. There has to be some standards at either the state or federal level on HOW many hours or miles OTR truckers can drive in one stretch, or how long a school bus or Greyhound driver may drive in one stretch of time. Maybe thats a good starting place for BSA to develop some guidelines?

I assume for every fatal vehicle crash in BSA's history, a root cause analysis is done. Are there any common themes that have emerged from those? Those themes would be the logical talking points / highlights of any training webinar developed. Its a matter of, "this is what we've seen in the past... it could happen to you, plan for how to minimize it happening to you."

RichardB, I appluad all you and the other folks in Irving do to continue to improve the BSA program for the youth. Myself and others online likely don't state our appreciation enough for guys like you. I especially want to thank you for wading into the fray that many pro scouters will not, the haggared, head-shaking, weary eyed view of the unit volunteer who must live with the policies handed down from on high. At least you're willing to give us your ear from time to time, which is more than I can say for most paid scouters.

I'll tell you this Richard...

A mandatory safe driving test / class would make more sense than the crappy IOLS class I was just mandated to retake (even though I just did WLOT two years ago) just to get "trained" as a new ASM. Especially since I've been camping for 30+ years and could have done a better job of teaching the class I took.

I suffer through YPG, safe swim, safety afloat, and CPR renewal every two years even though the likelihood of me every running across a child molester, a water rescue, or the need to use CPR or an AED are miniscule compared to the chance of being cut off in traffic with a truck load of scouts and gear in my 4x4.

Just seems like BSA should be looking at managing what they KNOW to be the macro risk before they required multiple renewal(s) of subject matter surrounding the micro risks.

Thanks for the stats and articles, they are very eye openning.

Food for thought.

Dean

So really the training is to cover BSA'a butt, not make us safer?

Even with OPI, I figure on most outings the most dangerous thing we do and the the thing with the statistically highest likelihood of KILLING a scout is the ride TO and FROM the event.

Seems BSA should maybe concentrate on the big high risk things first... just a thought.

I'd like to see stats on the last 5 years and how many injuries / deaths of scouts were due to car accidents, compared to all other types of injury / deaths in other activities the scouts engage in?

Question just came to me... we have tons of training, some required and some "additional" in order to participate in various activities.

We have safe swim defense and safety afloat that a registered leader must take once every 2 years to put any scout on a boat in water.

We have hazardous weather training online, etc...

WHY is their not a requirement for anyone driving boys to and from an activity or campout (other than a scout in their own parent's car) to have an online Safety Driving training?

You know, limit distractions, no Alcohol, don't drive when sleepy, etc...

I'm not a big fan of more requirements on volunteers, but I'm honestly surprised this is not only not required, but I don't even find it under "additional" training.

Any thoughts?

Dean

Hey SP, sorry you got caught in the traffic. I guess the gridiron isn't your cup-o-tea. A couple thoguhts,

First of all, I don't think the NFL players are killing, dismembering, and consuming Christians as part of the game, eh? Little tough on your analogy. Football players are entertainers. They are not gladiators, nor are they warriors. The gladiators are from a different time and place. The warriors are a tad bit south of you at Joint Base Lewis-McChord when they are not deployed to some far off land. Folks want to take their kids to a football game, good for them.

I wonder if some guy sitting in the traffic saw a scouter and thought, "Sheesh, those guys are just like the Oregon Trail folks hauling their poor offspring into the woods and making them sleep outside the house and cook for themselves and use the facilities outdoors.... They're just like the Donner Party." Many fat dudes wearing scout shirts, like they are really doing any high adventure stuff. OA folks painted up in various weird ways, they're not even real Native Americans...

Spun Thread.... "Who has the better costumes or are more offensive? Redskins fans, or OA vigil members?"