DeaconLance

BadenP,

Several of my diaconate courses were taught by Eastern Orthodox priests so I am confident I got a balanced education. The facts I posted are easily checked, I never said I was better than anyone else.

BadenP,

You sound like an ex-Catholic with an axe to grind coupled with lack of historical knowledge. My council references are entirely accurate and verifiable, unlike your ludicrous claim the Western Church did not use Latin until 1054. In fact all the references I provided are histroically verifiable facts, I said nothing in reference to theology. Nor will I debate theology here with you, this is not the place. A scout respects the beliefs of others. I will not, however, let false information go uncontested.

For those interested the following site has portions of the new Missal and comparisons of the old and new side by side.

http://usccb.org/romanmissal/samples-people.shtml

BadenP,

Latin has been the Liturgical Language of the Western Church since the 300s when it replaced Greek. In spite of what you claim the Pope of Rome can trace his succession back to St. Peter through 262 predecessors. Whether any of those are considered heretics by another Church is a seperate matter. As to the split with the Eastern Churches, that started with the Council of Ephesus and the Assyrian Church, extended to the Oriental Orthodox after the Council of Chalcedon and culminated in the Eastern Orthodox rejection of reunion after the Council of Florence in 1439, unity having been troubled from 1054 and severly crippled by the Sack of Constantinople in 1204. Subsequently, portions of each of those Churches have resumed communion with Rome. I am a deacon of one of those Churches. The name Roman Catholic Church was coined in England after Henry VIII's creation of the Anglican Church, which also considered itself Catholic. Before you decide to pontificate about a Church of which you are not a member please do your research.

evmori asks: "So you are saying the denomination flag should take precedence over the American flag? Interesting."

I am saying the Cross of Christ, if on a flag, should take precedence over the US flag inside a church. Denominational flags do not necessarily contain the Cross but various heraldric or stylizied crosses so these I would not give precedence.

BadenP,

Change is indeed coming, all at once in Nov 11. The textual change could be likened to going from the Good News Bible to the RSV Bible. There are not many rubrical cahnges other than what always was to have been will be demanded and deviations will theoretically not be tolerated. There is certainly a move to use more Latin especially for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei and for the priest to take Institution Narrative in it. Venacular will retain its primacy. I suspect your priest friends are among those opposed to the changes and are spreading gloom and doom about the new Missal in effort to rile up the laity against it before they ever have a chance to experience it.

NJCubScouter,

It is already possible to say the entire Mass in Latin and always was. Latin was never suppressed, it simply became displaced by the newly approved vernacular after Vatican II.

The 62 Missal was suppressed until limted use of it was allowed in the 80s, but priests had to have the permission of their bishop to use it which the majority of bishops would not grant. Summorum Pontificum freed the 62 Missal and priests no longer need their bishops permission to use it.

evmori: "Regardless of what people think, there if no "Flag of Christ" only denominational flags. And the Flag Code can and actually does dictate where the American flag should be placed regardless of the venue. And it is a law with penalties. And if you remember correctly, Jesus stated "render to Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, one should follow the laws of man as well as God's law."

I did not say there was a "Flag of Christ". I said some might not want to place a national symbol before a flag bearing the Cross of Christ. The generic Protestant Christian flag is one such flag.

evmori states: "If the American flag is going to be displayed in a church sanctuary, it should be displayed properly. If it will not be displayed properly, then it should be removed."

Proper, I think that is the point. Some think it is not proper that a national flag take precedence over a flag with the Cross of Christ on it inside a church. The US Flag Code cannot not dictate rubrical protocol inside a place of worship. If a denomination or congregation wishes to display both the US and Christian flags and give the right position to the Christian flag that is their business and constitutional right.

"Well, I agree to a degree. We are a civilian organization but we are a uniformed civilian organization. A comparison might be the Catholic Church. Lay individuals, archbishops, diocesan bishops, Cardinals, Pope, decons, lay, etc. all have "uniforms" that they wear when doing "church stuff" so to speak. Are they egotists to wear their appropriate "uniform?" Does wearing "funny hats" make them more effective in their roles? In a way, it does."

This is not a good comparison. In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches there are rubrical laws that mandate what a bishop/priest/deacon wears and when. They have no choice in the matter.

"serve actively [N] months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility"

This idea is pretty old. Wayback they made combo PL/Scribe and PL/Bugler badges.

Taken from the Scoutmaster's Handbook, 5th edition, 1959.

"While Scouters may wear the insignia to which they are entitled, a 'total display' may not be in the best taste if the uniform looks overdecorated. Unauthorized insignia or incorrect wearing of authorized insignia is always wrong. Scouters must set the example for Scouts in this matter. The Scoutmaster who wears only his Scoutmaster emblem, council or community strip, troop numeral, and service star on his uniform is never guilty of poor taste."

Also something worth noting, when this handbook was issued there were only 10 square knots available: Honor Medal, Silver Buffalo, Silver Antelope, Silver Beaver, Medal of Merit, Scoutmaster Key, Scouter Training Award, Eagle, Quatermaster, and Silver. At this time when you earned the Scoutmaster Key you took the Scouter training Award off. A decorated Scouter would have had maybe three knots.

I note the in British Scouting only one knot in a category is worn. If you are awarded Silver Wolf you take Silver Acorn off. I wouldn't mind seeing this either.

If you ask me the Ranger requirements pale next to the requirements for the National Medal for Outdoor Achievement.

"Yet the Catholic Church still holds onto their archaic concept to this day that women are not worthy to be ordained to the priesthood, if that is not the ultimate sign of the oppression/supression of women by the church then I don't know what is."

The Catholic Church's teaching that women cannot be ordained priests has nothing to do with "worthiness". No human was more worthy than the Mother of God, yet Christ did not ordain his mother. The Church teaches that the priest stands in the person of Christ, Christ is a divine person with two natures, divine and human, and in his human nature he is male. Christ ordained only males to carry on his priesthood. For these two reasons the Catholic Church believes it is only possible to ordain males to the priesthood. The Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church, Polish National Catholic Church, and some Anglican Catholic/Traditional Anglican Churches also adhere to this belief.

Are girls oppressed by the BSA because they can't become Scouts or earn Eagle?

It isn't about saying one faith is better, it is about helping scouts fufill their duty to God. For example, a district is having a camporee Fri-Sun. 50% of scout are Protestant, 40% are Catholic and 9% are LDS, and 1% is Buddhist. The District can get chaplains for the first three, the Buddhist priest can't make it. Your solution is deny the 99% the ability to fulfill their duty because 1% might feel bad? Sorry that is pc nonsense.

The BSA already regulates the number of medals that may be worn, Sea Scouting does the same with knots. I simply think the entire BSA should follow their lead. It looks better and keeps egos in check. As for conversation starters, 1, 3, or 6 knots can start a conversation as well as 9 or 12 or 15. I remember when a scouter with three knots was considered highly decorated.

NJCubScouter,

The bottomline is the BSA does not determine a scout's duty to God, the scout, his parents and his faith do that. The BSA, the council, the troop don't get to decide it is easier to just do a Scout's Own and that will just have to suffice. Every accomodation should be made so that the most scouts can fufill their duty. We shouldn't deny that to scouts out of some pc idea that if we can't accomodate all we shouldn't accomodate any.

sherminator505,

Not my troop, another local one. And your point is taken.

NJCubScouter,

They are addressing a situation in which everyone is expected to attend. I am not saying anyone should compelled to attend. I am saying effort should be made to help scouts fulfill their duty to God. For Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, and Mormon scouts that is Mass/Liturgy/Service on Sunday, for Jewish scouts it is Temple on Saturday, for Muslim scouts it is Mosque on Friday. Buddhist, Hindu and other scouts do not have a specified weekly service. A Scout's Own might be offered as an alternative for those who don't have their own faith's service available. The BSA obviously agrese as they are making Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Buddhist, Islamic, and Jewish services available at Jamboree. Philmont has four seperate chapels for Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, and Jewish scouts that are staffed and services offered daily.(This message has been edited by DeaconLance)

They should be accomodated if possible but if they cannot the majority should not be denied their faith's service.

Eagle_23,

Universal Arrow Ribbon? That is if Sea Scouting allows it and I am not sure that it does.

sherminator505,

Yes, once. The female CC and Scoutmaster weren't fond of camping, ran it like a Webelos den, and the troop dwindled. Cause? Lack of interested males and the running off of male ASMs who didn't agree with the direction they were taking the troop.(This message has been edited by DeaconLance)

I vote the entire BSA adopt Sea Scouting's rule of no more than 6 knots.

Nay. Arrangements for seperate services for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mormons, etc. should be made as at National Jamboree.

"I'll change my attitude towards the BSA when the BSA stops denigrating and excluding atheists, not before. I don't consider it bigoted to be against an organization that denigrates a class of people."

So you don't believe in freedom of association? You don't have to like the BSA or its policies but the first amendment gives organizations the right to decide who its members will be.