David CO

11 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

I don't see how depriving councils of funding is "excellent" unless (as I believe is your position?) all councils and the entirety of Boy Scouts of America should be disbanded which I very much disagree with.

If there is a choice to be made that necessitates that I side with the councils/execs or the units/Chartered Organizations, I will choose the units and CO's every time.  

On 10/28/2010 at 1:34 PM, Beavah said:

 

If you go to a local business and get a $50 donation to a silent auction, what you may have just done is cost the council a $1000 donation from that business.

 

Two excellent outcomes.  

1 hour ago, heres_a_llama said:

I share your sentiments. Scouting isn't just an activity to me; it's a lifestyle.

Unfortunately, scouting has become an alternative lifestyle.

58 minutes ago, MattR said:

Most all of scouting is at the unit level and so all the politics and rehashing of perceived mistakes can be ignored.

Ignored?  This attitude is what got us into this bankruptcy mess in the first place.  BSA should not have ignored the child abuse.  It was a big mistake that should never be repeated.

12 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Shesh! Be a better role model. Please!

Barry

I think it is wrong for people to alter a quote.  You should not have put in the ...... bla, bla, bla.  Just quote him correctly and add your comments outside the quote box.  Doing so might make you a better role model.

12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Yet, I do wonder if there is still the ability for the BSA to sell it's IP to another entity. 

I'm not sure BSA actually has exclusive rights to all of the IP.  It certainly doesn't have the international rights.  There are many other countries who use the same IP in their boy scout programs.   BSA only has exclusive rights within the USA.

A smart lawyer could argue that BSA is leasing the IP from the WOSM, and cannot transfer the IP to another entity without WOSM consent.  It could also be argued that the federal charter protection does not apply to IP that is "owned" by WOSM.  

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

 

Moreover, any buyer would be prohibited by the charter itself from clearing out the board. Only the board itself can clear out the board or replace members of the board under 36 USC 30903 ("A vacancy on the board shall be filled by a majority vote of the remaining members of the board.")

 

I agree.  The board would have to vote to replace itself in whole (rather than one at a time).  As I said, they would never do it, even if it were necessary to save scouting.  It will never happen.

16 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

@SemperParatus you've got quite the tenure here! 

I was thinking the same thing.  1640 posts.  Am I having a senior moment?  I don't remember the name.

39 minutes ago, SemperParatus said:

Nobody would buy the BSA.  

I disagree.  BSA could be sold/merged if a potential buyer would be allowed to completely replace the board/staff and institute necessary reforms.   Of course, this will never happen.  The board/staff will protect their positions at all costs, right to the very end.

I have a few thoughts about this.  I have always been aware of the fact that there are many families out there who practice a greater degree of modesty in the home than what I was brought up with.  I have no problem with this.  To each their own.  I do have a problem with the idea that BSA might try to impose a YP rule regarding modesty that they would apply to scouters and their families in their own homes.  

 This idea that BSA's YP rules should apply to scouters at all times and in all places is absurd.  

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I am also not a lawyer...but consider:  your Unit is chartered by YOUR council, and the charter agreement is between your CO and your council...not the other council.  IF your council tells you not to camp, you are in violation of the charter agreement if you do.

I think the exact opposite is true.  If the council tells you not to camp, the council is violating the charter agreement.

6 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

BSA is not the only organization that does this.  My religion has provisions for excommunication for certain acts, even if those acts occur outside of church or church functions. 

My religion does not impose any rules about not having appropriate one-on-one interactions outside of church functions.  Nor does it impose two-deep adult leadership outside of church.  I don't know of any religion or organization, other than BSA, that does this.  I do think BSA is unique in this regard.  I could be wrong, but I don't know of any.

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

OK, then how about this rule.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?

 

This topic has been about interactions outside of scouting.  I think you are making the same mistake as BSA when you confuse the two things.  There is a big difference between regulating activities at a unit campout and trying to control people's interactions outside of scouting.

3 hours ago, Liz said:

The policy, as you state, is clear and doesn’t give exceptions, even logical ones.

Right.  Stop there.  

There is no point in looking any further for exceptions or loopholes.  Those are the rules.  

Trying to conscientiously follow the BSA rules is like trying to never squash an ant.  You can never walk in the grass.  You can never drive a car.  You must always keep an eye on the sidewalk every step of the way.  It may be theoretically possible to do it, but it will ruin your life.  It will ruin your kid's life.

2 hours ago, Liz said:

Really? So what are they? Where is this clear line drawn? Can you point me to the right paragraph because I can’t find it. That is why I’m asking. 

Yes.  Really.  No one-on-one contact.  That is about as clear a line as can be drawn.

Now, in order to more fully answer your question, I have to venture into the area of opinion, which you asked me not to do.  BSA intentionally made YP rules knowing that the adult leaders could not and would not follow them.  The rules were made to be broken.  

No scouters in their right minds would forbid their son from ever having his friends over to the house to play.  Does it violate the YP rules?  Yes.  Do it anyway.  Will BSA ever say it's ok for your son to have his friends over to the house?  No.  Do it any way.  

If you are a teacher (like me), it is necessary for you to have one-on-one contact with students.  Can't be avoided.  Will BSA ever say that it's ok?  Nope.  Do it any way.  School classrooms don't have two deep leadership.  Will BSA say it's ok?  Nope.  Do it any way.

I think you should stop looking for BSA documentation and just use common sense.  If BSA doesn't want you to use common sense, do it anyway.

1 hour ago, Liz said:

I’m not particularly fishing for opinions (of course I’m not saying you can’t share your thoughts) but what I’m searching for is written documentation of how far we are supposed to take these rules in activities or relationships that don’t have direct correspondence with Scouting.  

If you're not fishing for opinions, I think you already know the answer.  The BSA rules are very clear and well documented.  

8 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

It's the same way in the Corporate Sector. Lots of people sitting on multiple boards, whether it's for profit or non-profit orgs. 

True.  I disagree with those who say we are a systemically racist country, but I do think we have become a systemically elitist country.  IMO, that's almost as bad.

16 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I find it curious that in the non-profit space there is almost a caste system that suggests board members should have to contribute financially to be on the board. 

There is definitely a feeling of aristocracy amongst the crowd that sits on most of these boards.  They feel entitled.  I think this is part of the reason why the millennials don't like joining service clubs.  They are more than willing to help out, for a good cause, but they aren't willing to put up with all of this elitism nonsense.  

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Atlanta Area Council SE base salary is close to $500,000.  Top Five folks in the staff of + 70 combined make over $1,000,000.  When you add in benefits, bonuses, etc the total for those 5 is closer to $2,000,000.

Nice work if you can get it I guess

Only for the sort of guy who thinks that profiteering off of kids is nice work.

44 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

...who give big bucks to the council.  How much does an Execurive Board position cost in your council?

There is no published price, of course.  I've been told the price for a seat on the board starts at around $10,000.  I'm not sure if that is a one-time gift or an annual donation.  Either way, it is way beyond my means.

45 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Despite what many here will tell you, volunteers do have tremendous sway that the council level. 

Only the wealthy volunteers.

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Many who get involved in Scouting do so to have a great Scouting experience - not run a charity.  

If that is the case, BSA should lose its tax exemption.  

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Not to defend National too much, but, they've made several attempts to reach underserved youth.  That was part of the thrust of the ISP.  Learning for Life, Scoutreach, Scouting and Soccer, generally fall into that category.  They may be bad at it, but, they've certainly tried.

Sorry.  Any defense of national is too much.

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

David CO, are you saying that the early guys saw a money-making opportunity in the Scouting movement, quickly incorporated, merchandised the operation, eliminated the competition, and used their influence to garner a Congressional Charter to seal their virtual monopoly?

Say it wasn't so!!

Very close.  The early guys (including Boyce) had always intended for scouting to have a broad appeal that reached beyond social and economic classes.  The charter reflects this attitude.  The first scout executive (West) pulled off a palace coup, and drove out most of the organization's founders
(including Boyce).  He then transformed BSA into a money-making operation, eliminated the competition, and secured an astronomical salary for himself.

This would make a great TV miniseries.  I'm surprised it has never been done.