DanKroh

"You don't want other people to use their beliefs to tell you how to run your life. What about you telling others how to run their life? You want to tell people who they can hire and fire? You want the government to tell people who they can and who they can not sell their house to." No, I don't want to tell others how to run their lives, up to the point where they start impacting my ability to make a living and find a place to live. In any case, *I* don't do that, the government does. (Oh, and fair housing only applies to landlords, not to homeowners selling a property.) If you don't like

So, TheScout, is the Flying Spaghetti Monster more or less absurd than: golden plates containing revelations that can only be translated with "magic glasses"? that people are really beings of pure spirit that can travel outside their bodies whenever they want and have existed for trillions of years? that God lives near a star called Kolob? that Xenu, an alien ruler, brought billions of people to Earth 75 million years ago in DC-10s? a deity who has somewhere between 4 and sixteen arms and the head of an elephant, and who rides a giant mouse? One man's absurdity is another man

Gigibw, In the situation you have described, the man in question has committed battery on two people. This incident should be reported to the police.

I'm definitely torn on this issue. On the one hand, having a chest full of knots can seem to some people to be boastful and pretentious. On the other hand, they are also an indicator to someone who may be looking for guidance, "oh, this person has experience". If I'm a new Tiger Den Leader, for example, someone who has a Tiger Den Leader knot is someone who I would seek out for advice. Someone without the knot may have equally good advice, but without that knot, how am I supposed to know if they have "been there, done that"? I could go around asking each person if they have been a Tiger D

"Should freedom only apply to those ideas that we like? This is now putting us (or the government) in the place of judging other peoples ideas (which you seem to dislike so much, but only when someone judges yours)." Excuse me? I don't know how you get from my thinking that everyone should be treated equally to me disliking other people's ideas or wanting to judge other people's ideas. Their ideas are their own. It's their actions I'm concerned with, at least when they affect me and mine. Judge my ideas all you want. However, I think "respecting others" and having obvious disdain for and

" Dan, it seems you have a vastly different conception of freedom than I do. It seems you want the iron hand of government to force equality down the throats of Americans. I don't think that is the dream of America." No, I just want to government to ensure "liberty and justice for all". Hmmm. Where have I heard that before? As an independent with libertarian leanings, I also believe that the government has too much of a hand in our lives. But until those laws are repealed, I expect the government to follow as well as enforce them. What I see as truly a shame is that there is a need f

"The only right to be "treated equally" would stem from the Fourteenth Amendment stating in part "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall . . . deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Notice it applies only to the states and not the federal government. Also, keep in mind the intent of the Amendment. Even you must admit its intent was not to allow Wicca or any other religious sect the right to have its holidays recognized or remove such rights from Christians in any way." I'm not going to quibble the interpretation of the Constitution, becau

"Please point out the 'right' which someone is being denied. Nobody has a right to have schools close on any day they deem is a religous holiday for their faith." The right being denied is the right to be treated equally. Christians are given special treatment, including having schools closed for their religious holidays. No other faiths are given that consideration. "Wiccan are not being persecuted." Really? Well, I guess that depends on what you consider persecution. When Wiccan parents are taken to courts and told that they are not allowed to raise their children in their rel

" I can explain the discrepancy. It is called democracy. These rules are not made in a vacuum. They are made by school boards and elected legislatures which were elected by the people. The majority of people in the majority of places in this country are Christian, which is why those beliefs are respected." So minority beliefs don't deserve respect? How about those of us in the minority who respect those (Christian) beliefs because we think it is the right thing to do, not because they are in the majority? "If the Wiccan (or any religion) are a majority in any town and wish to elect

"The real question is: Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a higher power consistent with the DRP. If the Pastafarian Movement applied for an emblem should we grant it? They do have a deity? I say no." Their deity is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I'd love to see the design of their religious emblem, if it is anything like the FSM emblem I've seen on the back of some cars. (Note to self, gotta get me one of those) TheScout, can you please name for me the deity worshipped by Buddists (who have an approved emblem)? By Scientologists (who are an approved CO)? By Zoroastrians (who ha

"Does the US government clearly recognize the Wicca? I know there is currently a large dispute over a soldier who they are not allowing to put a Wicca symbol on his tombstone in a federal cemetary. I also wouldn't say they have had the same privileges. When was the last time there was a Wicca Senate or House chaplain as an example?" Just for clarity of terms, Wicca (not "the" Wicca) is the name of the religious path. Wiccan is the adjectival form, so it would be a Wiccan symbol or a Wiccan chaplain. Wicca is recognized by the US government as a religion, for legal purposes. Wiccan gr

"Dan I was of the understanding (I could be wrong) that any child with a religious observance can be excused from school on that day." Any child belonging to a "mainstream" religion can generally be excused for a religious observance (i.e. Jewish kids can get off for Yom Kippur, etc.), but they still have to make up any work they missed that day, including any tests. While I have not actually tried to have my sons excused for any of our observances, I do know Pagan families who have been told that their children could NOT be excused from school for their religious observances. Here's

"Dan, who was the response geared toward. I was trying to get out the point that CoG and Satanism/Devil Worshipping have nothing to do with eachother even though a lot of misinformed people think that they do, therfore the stigma." ASM915, my friend, my response was geared toward TheScout in response to remarks which he has since clarified, which I do appreciate. I am very greatful for people who are willing to educate themselves about other religions, such as yourself. On a similar note, I am always, er, amused I guess is the best word, by people who assume that I am not Christian b

"So am I correct to believe you think we should make American kids go to school on Christmas? That doesn't seem to be a good idea." No, you are not correct. I have no problem with kids having off for Christmas, but if they are not Christian, they should be able to have off for their own religious holidays, too. Excused, without having to make up whatever work was done that day. It would be nice if schools were actually closed for other holidays like they are for the Christian ones, but I realize that would seriously cut into school time, and is unrealistic. What I would like is

"Menorahs are left alone while all Christian symbols must be removed. Christians want nothing more than a level playing field" Ed, I agree that a level playing field is best. In my experience, though, it is not the Christians who are not given a level playing field, but everyone else. See a lot of Passover displays on municipal property this time of year? Is your town holding a matza-ball hunt as well as an Easter egg hunt? Did they have an Ostara display back on March 21st? Our schools are closed today for Good Friday. But my kids had to go to school on Ostara. They didn't get off f

Gonzo, you originally said "I heard on Paul Harvey yesterday that 91 % of the US says they are Christian" But then you said: "He said that according to Newsweek Magazine, 91% of Amercian adults believe in God" So which is it, 91% is Christian, or 91% believes in God. You do see that the two are not the same thing, I hope? I would actually believe that in a random poll conducted by a non-academic study that they might get 91% who believe in God, and 87% who actually profess SOME religion. According to the article Merlyn linked to, the Christians only made up 82%. That's a little highe

"Here's a site to mess with your collective minds and stretch the idea of inclusiveness... it seems there are many, many "true faiths". www.religioustolerance.org" Thank you, SSScout, I forgot that one. Excellent site! Lots of information presented in an educational, unbiased fashion. Their section on Paganism is excellent.

"I just went to www.paulharvey.com and listened to the archive of Tuesday's broadcast. He said that according to Newsweek Magazine, 91% of Amercian adults believe in God, atheists, however noisy, are just 3% of us. If I'm not mistaken, you would say that Newsweek magazine is a reliable source. But, to be sure, i looked it up, it's in the March 30, 2007, Newsweek. I guess your "reliable" polling data isn't reliable, Me thinks you're wrong." So Newsweek is more reliable than a peer reviewed, academic study (ARIS). Riiiiight. Obviously you've never worked in journalism. "I wouldn't mind

TheScout, Ah, now I understand that you have no idea what Wicca is about, and have listened to the propaganda about us spread by those who wish to label us something we are not. I would suggest you educate yourself about our beliefs before you go labeling us "Devil Worshipers" and compare us to religions that engaged in human (or any living thing) sacrifice. For the record, we do neither. Here is a link to get you started: http://www.ecauldron.com/newpagan.php You will find information about many pagan religions there (none of which worship the devil, btw, not even Satani

"But one thing I will tell you for sure is the witches or Wiccan or whatever you wish to call them do not belong in scouting." Well, then, I'll just thank all my Gods that you are not the one who gets to decide to kick me and my kids out of scouting.

"I heard on Paul Harvey yesterday that 91 % of the US says they are Christian, only 3% said they are atheist. So, please don't waste my time over a small percentage of the 3% trying to get into BSA. 3 percent? C'mon, move onto something else." Hmm, this contradicts what I have seen from the reliable polling data. In 2001, the American Religious Identification Survey showed Christians to make up about 77% of the population (down from 86% in 1990, so if we extrapolate a similar decline to 2007, they would be down to about 73% by now, but that is purely an estimate). According to the

"Or a Judeo-Christian one." Why stop there? Why not kick out the Jews, too? After all, aren't they still following the wrong religion? Why is their "wrong" religion more acceptable than any of the other "wrong" alternatives?

Gonzo, "How about all of the schools that can't charter BSA units. That's about 9,000 examples. I'm sure if you had a groupd of atheists who want to use a school gym or meeting room, you could probably get it." Actually, the other pack in my town uses the school gym for their meetings without any problem whatsoever (they are chartered by a local church). We had our Pinewood Derby last month in the school cafeteria. Again, we've never been denied access to school grounds on off-school hours for meetings, events, even recruiting. "How about towns and cities being sued over Chris

I am also a scientist and a believer, and I see no conflict between the two. Science is the tool which the Creator has give us to try to understand the magnificence of the universe around us. To reject science is to reject one of the Creator's gifts. To reject the Creator in favor of science leaves far too many questions that cannot be answered without faith. Excellent article, Beaver, thanks for posting it.

Packsaddle, thank you for your kind words. It is people like you and other individuals I've encountered in scouting (particulary in my local units) who go beyond "tolerance" to true acceptance of the differences of others that make me continue to believe in the principles that scouting is supposed to be based on, even when the national organization doesn't follow those principles in their own actions.