Cubmaster Mike

All of our den leaders are voting members of the committee. The requirements to serve on the Pack committee are shown in Leaders Section 23 of the Cub Scout Leader Book. If they meet those requirements they are fine. We have a seprate treasurer, advancement chair, etc., and our den leaders serve as simply committee members with a vote. It shouldn't be a problem.

We push the use of flags by each den and encourage each den to make their own. All dens use the numbering system except for Webelos at their option. Each den maintains their number throughout their time in the Pack and numbers are added as needed. WHy flags? Casue we use them as Den brags! At each pack meeting, the den that has the best uniform inspection gets the inspection award. This consists of a large tabletop figure that they can add their name to the bottom, as well as an Eagle feather for their den flag (imitation eagle feather with leather thong and safety pin). The boys love it. We're going to expand it this year to include flag ornaments for event attendance, scout spirit, good turns, etc. Gonna make those den flags shine!!!

Way to go Lynda! Lazy mind is the right term. We all have enough control over the English language that we do not not need to use expletives. A Scout is Clean in mind, body and actions.

The restrictions on outings are simple. No swearing, no alcohol, no smoking. When we're camping, we set the example 24/7. If they can't abide by the rules, then don't come.

I remember one time I let me language slip as a boy scout in camp. My goodness did one of the parents come down on me hard! And so did my parents when we got home and he told them....ouch....

Uzz-

Set the expectation. I start off the first Pack meeting of the year with a flip chart. Ask the boys what rules do they think we should follow. They come up with some pretty good ones and I suggest the others and they agree. I then explain that these are the rules and that discipine will increase from a warning all the way up to suspension.

And sometimes you have to act. Last week in the middle of our graduation ceremony for the Wolf den, wearing the ceremonial Akela headdress and breastplate, I had to stop the ceremony, walk over to the Bear den and ask a parent to come sit between a group of boys who would not stop messing around and talking (it was loud enough that it distracted me from the ceremony while my back was turned). There were a half dozen parents sitting behind the boys while this was happening and not one stopped it on their own (each ceremony took about 5-10 minutes and the Bear den was next)

I attribute a lot of it to our culture- a sort of "don't you DARE talk to my sweet Johnny like that!" mentality, and a general tune out on the part of the parents to the behavior of others.

The parents were probably absorbed in the ceremony (which was really cool) and had tuned out the bad behavior. I also see HUGE amount of parents who will not discipline someone else's child. I'm not talking corporal punishment here, but the ability to stand-up and say "hey, behave yourself" to a group of scouts or siblings. They know what needs to be done, they are just not willing to do it. Heck, when I'm up front doing my CM thing at Pack meetings, I expect someone to help keep an eye on my kids.

I see it in the grocery store- standing behind the mother who tells her child that he can't have the candy or balloon or toy on the display shelf. The child screams, crys and hits the mother and then tries to hold onto the object anyway. The parent will not discipline the child. When did it become okay to strike out at others like that? I use commands sparingly but when I give it, I expect obedience. I train hunting dogs and if you give a command, the dog had better respond, and if it doesn't, then you better be prepared to discipline IMMEDIATELY or the dog will know that it's okay not to listen. The same reaction can be expected from a child.

That may sound a little harsh, comparing hunting dogs to children, but it doesn't hurt the dog's feelings and you should see my kids retrieve....

Keep at it Uzz, we've been getting a number of transfers from other units recently, and the common thread is "you should have seen our last pack, there was no discipline at all...."

Yes, we did ask for assistance Seattle, and the Distrcit recommended we go to Small Claims Court. We decided that rather than force a new pack committee to go on the attack and dredge up an ugly part of our pack history,we would rather take the high road and let this one go.

CMM

Never an easy thing to do, but we did it this year. Last year when I joined the pack and took over as CM, the COR was also serving as WDL and the fundraising chair. The outgoing CM and treasurer surprised me at the end of the year (as they were walking out the door) with the news that the COR had collected a large sum (hundreds) of fundraising money and failed to turn it in. We discussed it with the District Key 3 and tried to collect from him with phone calls and even certified letters, but the COR (who had the old CM illegally award his boy the AOL and bridge over to Boy Scouts at the Pack meeting before I took over - but that is another story) would not acknowledge it.

We are sponsored by the school PFC and the COR was the Vice President of the PFC. I went to the PFC president and requested a new COR. The president asked why and I told her that the existign COR "was no longer active with our group and we would like a new rep." Some puzzled looks but she asked another member of the PFC if she would do the job. We also replaced most of the Pack committee who had condoned these past actions.

The new COR asked me what happened to the old one. I simply told her that the old COR had misappropriated Pack funds and therefore we wanted a new one. I now attend the PFC meetings and the old COR (still the VP) won't look me in the eye.

We never got that fundraising money, but I get satisfaction from our sudden poularity on campus thanks to the active volunteers in our new pack committee and their commitment to the phrase "on my honor."

Another poster from Ut-in Selica Lodge in California. Wek Wek Apanuc

Wow madkins, that's a first for me.

We supply the book. It's included in their annual dues. Part of the responsibility learned int eh Cub years is how to be responsible for items, and the book is a big part of it. Yes, they bring it to every meeting. And yes, there is a lot of the program that get's done in the meetings, I agree with Cubbingcarol, the boys who get the rank would be half if we did not do some of the requirements in the meetings.

There are a lot of electives and missed opportunities if we did not have a book. I can't imagine running a program without it.

My basic response- you are the den leader. Even if the boys contribute, you are stil the one setting the rules and yo are the one deciding on the consequences and when to act. Don't worry about "stepping over your bounds", my experience has been that some parents will step forward to control the boys behavior and others either can't or won't.

Set the level of expected behavior. If they cannot meet it, then you need to meet with the parent and boy and explain that if they cannot meet that level, then they will not be allowed to attend- "suspended" for a defined period of time.

I'm talking about that pin that used to be referred to as the "Perfect attendance pin" but is now called the "Attendance pin and bar." The Cub Scout Leader Book states that the Pack Committee establishes the criteria for this award. In the past this pack has let each den leder make up their own requriements, the differences between which I noticed caused some grousing from den leaders and parents. I'm trying to establish a baseline that would apply to the pack as a whole and am looking for some examples from other groups. I'm thinking of recommending to the Pack Committee that the baseline be:

1. Attendance at all pack meetings and Blue and Gold

2. Atendance at all special events (Space Derby, Senior Caroling, Scouting for Food, Raingutter Regatta, Pinewood Derby, etc.)

3. No more than 5 den meetings missed between September and June

Summertime activities would not be included because that is covered by the Summertime activity pin

How does this compare to other Packs?

I have a Webelos 1 boy. He is one of our special needs boys and has a pretty severe case of ADHD. For the last two years he has been getting harder and harder to handle. When the boys graduated from Bear to Webelos last year, we lost three out of four other boys in the den. I spoke with the parents of the one other boy to remain and they acknowledged that this first boys behavior almost made them not to return. They had visited another pack in town, but our program is so strong they decided to stay with us. I have confirmed with the other parents who left that the boys behavior was a deciding issue. We have since added six new boys and have a strong den. One of the parents of a boy who graduated out as a Webelos II volunteered to remain and lead the boys. He has done a great job and we have supported him with training, a den chief and committee participation.

At the start of the program year we discussed this boys behavior in our Pack Committee. I spoke with the single mom and explained that we had behavior requirements and that her son was expected to comply. She has attended den meetings and helps to a certain point in controlling the boys behavior. The DL and I have also spoken with the boy and explained that there are behavior expectations. Being a disruption to the den will result in loss of privileges to attend meetings and continued behavior will result in being asked to leave the pack. I have watched this den closely. The den leader does not want to admit defeat but at times he is stretched to his limit with the boy. When I see this I step in and assist where I can and have pulled the boy aside myself and given him warnings and acted on those warnings when he fails to comply.

We have lost one of the new boys as a direct result of this boys disruptive behavior ad his pestering of the other boys. He shouts out at den a d pack meetings and interrupts ceremonies and games. Several of the other boys have also shown displeasure and I notice them moving away so that they dont have to sit next to him in a den meeting or pack meeting. Mom is not helping as much as I think she should. Both the committee chair and myself have made it clear on several occasions that we will meet with the parent if the DL tells us that the behavior warrants it. He has held back from agreeing with us taking that next step. The DL no longer has a boy in the Pack and has stayed back a year to get the den up and running. As we move to graduation in June and I am looking for a new den leader for Webelos II, parents are not stepping forward because of the challenge of dealing with this boy and are considering leaving.

I know what I have to do, but that does not make it any less difficult. I do not want to override the DL unless it is absolutely necessary. How many chances do I give before I tell the boy and his parent to find another pack? I will not sacrifice six boys for the sake of one. I have dealt with the mom before on an unrelated issue and she will not go quietly, and will sound off loudly both to the Council and the charter organization (school PFC).

What say you all?

So the boy was gone the whole school year, you see him in a store and he says he wants to come back and now you cant get hold of him?

At this point you have "done your best" to borrow from the motto. Time to move on. If it was really imporatant to the boy, thenhe should be contactingyou at this point.

We had a similar situation. Dad was Webelos 1 leader and boy in den, come Webelos 2 year,the boy and dad did not show up. Dad said they were still around, but another parent took over the den. One month before AOL and bridging, dad said they were not moving on to boy scouts but would be back for the AOL ceremony. The fact that the boy had not participated or shown any sign of interest this year was enough for me. I asked the den leader how she felt it would affect the other boys letting this one get the award without being active for the year. Mixed feelings in the den. We set his awards aside in case he walked into the ceremony, but did not push for him to attend. When he didn't show up, the awards went back into the advancement bin. Life goes on.

cmarrero- see my post under "Summertime Blues" for some ideas. Good luck and keep it up!

Our pack has activities planned for late June, July and August. Most of the dens don't meet during the summer except for the webelos.

The summer activities are family get togethers. They have a specific singular purpose and help retain the sense of community and family int he pack.

June starts with a graduation ceremony then ends with "Water Wars" at a local park- boys bring squirt guns and we play water type games for an afternoon.

July starts with the July Fourth parade and ends with a bike ride.

August starts with a family picnic and ends with a family campout.

It's not a lot of work and it's great seeing all the boys and families over the summer.

belt loops and beads should go out immediately or as soon as possible at den meetings. Don't wait for a pack meeting. Rank advancements and webelos activity pins should be given out at the very next pack meeting after award is earned. SO you mayhave only one or two rank awards at each pack meeting. It shows the the other boys and parents steady progress by the pack!

Get those rank cards out. One of the coolest things I've shown the boys in the pack is my Webelos Arrow of Light card from 1972.

First remember that the webelos need to plan and cook meals as one requirement for their AOL. Other ranks, wolfs included need to plana nd cook an outdoor meal for acheivements.

Recommend that if you have good representation from each den, then let each den be responsible for one meal for the entire pack campout. That way the boys can compare different styles and it challenges them to create meals that get away from beanie-weanies and instant oatmeal.

Proud Bird is right about the obsessive nature of these cars. I have been toying with the idea of ban in our pack, but would never institute it without first consulting the CC and DLs. Our problem is that a couple of boys bring them to den meetings and they become a distraction for these one or two boys. And if they can't find them or see someone touching them without their permission, it can get very exciting.

I like card games but they should be kept to a specific part of the meeting if at all, and only in moderation. Outdoors, hey let 'em go wild.

I take the commemorative approach instead of useful. The boyus get ceremonial arrows and a Cub Scout coin (don't see many of those around!) It's the little things that get tucked in a drawer and found 10 years later that you tend to treasure.....

The den meeting place is only unlocked on dry days.

How early you arrive to set up for the Pack meeting is inversely proportional to how many boys show up on time.

The more e-mails you send out about cub scout day camp, thge more likely it is that a parent will ask "what days and what time is it again?"

When I got back into a pack last year, the old cubmaster and committee chair had the pack running (or so they thought) with 7 people doing 20 positions. They got really nervous when I said that we should change and require every family to volunteer. But we did it.....

We switched to "mandatory volunteerism" for this year and pointed to the sports model. If you want your son or daughter to play soccer or baseball, you are REQUIRED to sign up for some responsibility with the team (or at least that is the way it is with our local leagues). We had ZERO complaints when we put it out to our parents and 50 percent of the parents sent back a volunteer form. We then held a planning session in June and put all the open positons on poster board and handed the families who had not volunteered yellow stickies with their name. We inroduced the positions and then asked them to come up and put their name on an opening. It worked!!!!

Our requirement is that every family must do one of the following:

1. Take a one year position working with boys (Den Leader, Assist. DL, etc.)

2. Take a one year position working with adults (Committee, treasureer, etc.)

3. Assist at two pack functions each year (serving as Event chair counts as two).

Works well. the only change I want to make in he fall is encourage the Committee Chair to get parents who join during the program year to sign up immediately for any openings.

At our Council Pow Wow, I saw a great presentation on Pinewood Derbies. One of the points made by the presenter is that since it was their big event of the year (ours, too) every boy goes home with hardware, i.e., a small participation trophy. Bigger ones for the den and pack winners. This is similar to the youth sports model, where all boys on the team get a participation plaque or trophy.

I'm looking for some good places to put together trophies. What is the experience out there with different trophy retailers? Any suppliers out there who offer Scout discounts?

E-mail of any references would be appreciated.

MY goodness, what a place to wade in for my first post. I will try not to be so longwinded in the future.

Duty to God- it's part of the Principle, it's part of the Oath, it's in the Pledge of Allegiance. Don't agree with it? Fine, accept the policy and play nice, or leave. It's as simple at that.

Look, I work for a public utility and I don't always agree with my boss or the publically elected Board of Directors. Sometimes I don't agree that what they decide is in the public's best interest. I speak my mind but afterwards they will act according to their own priorities. I don't quit my job because they didn't agree with me. I accept that there is a difference, move on and carry out my responsibilities in accordance with their decision. And rest assured, If I do not feel that I can carry out my responsibilities ethically or morally, then I will quit.

It's a non-religious example, but the results are the same. Cannot live with the religious aspect of the program? Then if your beliefs are that important to you then you should leave.

Our charter org is a public school. With a lesbian principal. When I joined the pack last year (and became cubmaster 3 months later) I was told by our then committee chair, outgoing charter org rep and cubmaster that we don't have a good relationship with the school given our principal's orientation and the public facility use aspect and that we should just lay low and be quiet. What utter poppycock. One of the first things I did was meet with our principal in full uniform to introduce myself and explain that we were a service organization that builds good citizens and that we were there to help when they need us. Next I went to the President of the School Parent Faculty Club and told them that we needed a new Charter Org Rep and by the way, here was the job description where they agree to uphold the BSA Religious Principle. When they asked what that Religious Principle was, I printed it out also and gave it to them.

The end result? Six months later, our old Committee Chair and Charter Org Rep quit the Pack. So did three families. However, our uniformed (and TRAINED) adult leadership increased from 2 to 10 and our boy membership DOUBLED. We actually have boys now joining our pack from other schools (instead of the pack at their own school).

Why the sudden interest from our families? Because we tossed out the old program of liberal interpretation and went back to a basics program. You know those "tired old outdated concepts:"

Citizenship

Service and Helping Others

Personal Growth

Family Undertanding

Respecting Others

Fun, Fun, Fun

and of course, Spiritual Growth.

Why does our program work? I believe because of these basic core values. BSA National is not "out-of touch or outdated."The BSA national policies have not changed because this is what people want. When I meet with new parents and hand out to them the 10 Purposes of Cub Scouting, I don't qualify or downplay any of them. I tell them that this is what we are and this is what we strive for. We don't recruit boys, we recruit families. And believe me, parents are HAPPY tht we embrace those values.

I can't say I've ever met a true aethiest. Here's my story: Two months ago I had a boat accident while duck hunting and capsized 1 mile from shore in 48 degree water. Life jackets were in the boat but not on our bodies (STUPID!!) and after trying to flip the boat with no luck, we shed as much of our gear as possible and swam for a nearby floating blind 20 yards away against a hard current and rolling seas. No one saw the accident and our emergency gear went down with the boat. Air temperature was less than fifty and raining hard on us. Soaked to the skin and with only wet weather gear, we huddled and shared body warth for 6-1/2 hours before our families called the Coast Guard who found us late that night. There were four of us in that boat, three humans and a hunting dog. The humans survived, the dog did not. My two friends with me that evening were both self-sworn aethiests. And they were also the first to say out loud that the reason we didnt't drown was that "someone was looking out for us." That someone was God. They still profess that they are aethiests but neither of them will deny that they were praying that night in the water. It's not worth arguing the religious point with them. I guess the old Army adage "there are no aethiests in foxholes" is true.

Note: the survival skills I practiced in that floating blind were learned in the Boy Scouts!