Cubmaster Mike

If the guide is in error, but the guide is the rule on how things are supposed to be- is the rule wrong or is the patch wrong or is the guide right and we have all been wrong all along but we can't be because we were all following the rules, but the rule is the guide and the guide is wrong.......

I think that I just created a paradox and tore a hole in the time-space continuum.

Sorry to disagree GNX, but "WE" NRA INstructors ( I'm one too remember) do not need to shout all the time. Sure a firm voice should be used if a violation is taking place, but start with that and build up from there. I'm more concerned about the lack of smiles, the lack of encouragement, the lack of coaching. IMHO a lot of people think that "instruction" equates with "coaching."

Nobody has commented yet on the lack of uniform but that bothered me too. I have a "NRA Certified Instructor" shirt, but when I am working on a Scout range, I wear the Scout uniform. I think it helps the boys identify with me. plus I look really cool in it.... which reminds me, humor is also part of the program.

I run ranges because I want the boys to have some fun. High fives as they enter, handshakes as they leave.

I remember about four years back, at a week long camp. Another rangemaster and I split the duties and I ran the archery range while he was running the rifle range. At the end of the week, when I asked my son and his friends what was the most fun, they all immediately said "archery" or "rifle range." But when they talked about the rifle range, they all agreed that "yea, Mr. ===== yelled a lot!"

Safety does not equal volume.

Just got my staff appointment on Friday (archery) and my son had his youth interview on the same day.

The wheels are slowly starting to roll....(This message has been edited by cubmaster mike)

Okay I have to get this off my chest.

A couple of years ago I went to National Camp School and got my Shooting Sports Director certification. I paid my own way and use it to train day camp archery and BB instructors and help out at shooting sports events around the council

National rule changes last year now required that every Range have both a NRA certified instructor and a separate RSO. The BSA training is no longer required at all beyond simple youth protection.

I have a NRA certification as well- its part of the SSD program at NCS.

The difference between the two is that SSD training deals with both shooting and how to handle boys.

The NRA program teaches how to run a range and shoot and thats about it.

Ive been to several shooting sports events now that have rangemasters with NRA certificates but no BSA certificate and the difference is very noticeable.

Today I went to a shooting sports event at a local scout camp. The rifle range instructors all wore a lot of NRA gear (nothing BSA related) and had only two speaking voices: stern reprimand and shout.

As I said, I train and run ranges and understand that discipline and safety are tied together. But this was over the top. Angry voices, repeated shouting, repeated threatening to kick the boys out over and over again.

Eample: target gets loose, rangemasters call for a cease fire to reset the target, Scouts are to set down rifles and step back. The scouts follow direction but then one steps forward to pick up a round that had fallen off the table. Two rangemasters immediately lash out at the scout for stepping over the line and berate the boy, saying that they do not want the boy near a rifle and that Ive been shot once before and dont want that to happen again.

And for those who may wonder, none of my sons troop was on the range in this example or were kicked off. This continued throughout the day with different troops at the range. I did not go on the range or ask to shoot..

To their credit the Scouts just didnt mind. For many of them, this is their only experience with a rifle and they tolerate it for the chance to shoot. I hunt with a bow and a rifle and have grown up with firearms, so in my family they are just part of my household.

It just really bugged me today. Absolutely no coaching, no encouragement, no tolerance. NO BOY MANAGEMENT SKILLS WITNESSED. I dont interfere because its not my range or camp, I was merely a participant today. Im planning on writing a note to the Camp director about my observations.

The problem is, as we move more to a NRA standard and away from a BSA standard, I think that this will become the norm. What has been the experience out there in forum land?

I am a current member of and instructor for the NRA.

CMM

Wow, Ive heard some great points to take into the ULM.

There IS a checklist for the boys to use for each rank. And guess what, it is in the back of the handbook!

Why change what already exists? Lets just use it.

It is a good practice to have Scouts repeat the Scout Oath & Law often enough during troop meetings and other activities so that the Scouts can't help but keep them in memory.

We start each meeting with the Pledge, Oath and Law, so they should have it down.

Good point- you learn the Pledge of Allegiance through sheer repetition. I would expect not saying the Pledge for several years would rust up some memories.

At some point we have to start treating boys like men, I think requiring the scout to keep his records and book up to date is a good start.

Ah, the manly man factor

That approach to da methods reflects an organizational vision of providin' an activity for boys to get 'em out of the house and make the parents feel good.

And of course the guilt factor.

The handbook, though perhaps not required, is really the best way for a Scout to track his own advancement and investigate what the requirements mean on his own.

I like the responsibility angle.

"But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved." he doesn't bring the book, how does the BOR sign off in the book?

Interesting- Ill look over that training. Had not seen it before.

Regarding books as part of the uniform. Actually that is exactly what we tell the first years. Seems to have fallen off with the older boys.

Fortunately the shirt and pant part of uniforming is not a problem. We tell them it is required and they do it without question. Those that would question it we point out that while a collared shirt and tie are not required for a job interview, you stand a much better chance of getting a job with themthan without. I think author Dave Ramsey put it well on the subject of dressing for success and conforming to norms when interviewing:

Is it Fair? Probably not. Is it how The Real World works? Yes.

Thank you for good input so far. (This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

great input!

To answer a couple of questions, if I did not mention it before, I've only been wiht this troop for a year now.

The troop does do weekly flag ceremonies, but the Oath and Law are not part of the opening or closing. I guess that since it is not said after they get tenderfoot, it gets lost. I can suggest to the SPL that he works it back into the program.

Where did the review form come from? Before my time. There was a past Scoutmaster who is spoken of with both awe and sarcasm (an interesting mix) who had created a great deal of the Troop's documentation. This form was passed down from her. When we joined it is now the practice that a Scout who wants to advance fill out this sheet and get his review. The handbooks are required for first year scouts to bring to all meetings, but now that you mention it, I have not seen a book past the first year.

It's a tender subject. New guy suggesting that boys use their books for record keeping when it has not been done before. Suggesting deviations from a form that has been used for several years. I'll have to think about that. Baby steps.

CMM

(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

I could use some input.

As one of the many ASMs in our troop it is my privilege now and then to perform a Scoutmaster conference for boys advancing a rank. Our troop has a form that the Scout fills out for his Scoutmaster conference where the Scout describes a portion of what he did for his rank. I review the form with him and then have him state the Scout Oath and Law. In the last four months I have had 2 scouts, one going for 1st Class and one going for Star that could not state either the Oath or the Law- meaning that they could only say half the Law and not all of the Oath.

Personally I think that knowing and committing to it is important. Not wanting to deny the boy access to a Board of Review. I wrote a note at the bottom of each of these two reviews stating that the boy should practice and repeat the Oath and Law for the BOR. This typically gives him 1-2 weeks to practice it since BORs are held once a month.

Just before the last BOR I asked my son who was putting on his uniform to get his book to bring it to the review. He told me that books are not required.

Fast forward to the following week at the Committee meeting. The BOR chair was there and I asked her if she reviewed books at the BOR. She said no, that boys would lose books and that the troop kept records of the boys advancement. I told her that I recognize the need to keep troop records but that a boy should be required to keep records of his progress and present it as part of his advancement.

She told me that that was not her responsibility (this is true).

While I understand that there are boys who will lose a library of handbooks, I do believe that the Scout should track his advancement and show what he did for a rank. Example- one of the boys I was giving a ride home after a Troop meeting told me that the was going to have a conference next week for his 1st class rank. I asked him who he invited to a meeting- he paused, and thought, then asked "I have to invite someone to a meeting? Is that a requirement?" I think that there has to be some kind of a checklist that a Scout can do.

Meanwhile back at the BOR:

She then stated that there was "some leader" who wrote on a couple of forms that the Scout was to recite the Scout Oath and Law at the Board of Review and she will never do that since it was a test and that was not what they do.

I told her that "some leader" was me. It was not my intention to have the BOR test the Scout (I know they don't), merely to give the boy a chance to practice the Oath and Law before the BOR so that I did not hold up his advancement.

The CC suggested that we take this back to the Uniformed Leader Meeting where we will discuss the Oath and Law and making a Scout learn it. I will also bring up the progress record -anybody remember the old pocket progress record books we had back in the 70s?

So my questions are two-fold:

1. Advancement record- Should a boy show what he did to earn a rank? Personally I'd like to change the Scoutmaster Conference form to include a simple check off sheet of the requirements so that the Scout can show his progress.

2. Oath and Law- should I not sign off on a Scoutmaster conference if a Scout does not know the Oath and Law? I think that this is really important stuff. Scout spirit and all.

CMM

Wow. While I believe I have more than any others in my unit, after reading this list I feel so underdressed.....

3 complete Centennial uniforms(I mothballed my old ones when the new one came out)-

1 short sleeve troop ASM uniform

1 long sleeve UC uniform

1 short sleeve UC uniform

1 vintage 1972 Cubmaster uniform put together for the Pack's anniversary a couple of years back

After this year I'll be stepping back from Unit Commish (for Cub packs) and will be concentrating within the Troop unit. I will then switch all three to troop uni

CMM(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

Great story!

The ebb and tide of these things is huge.

I was my son's Tiger leader when he joined his Pack. There were only four of them that year. When he bridged from Webelos, there were nine in his patrol, but only 2 of the remaining original four.

This year the other boy dropped from the troop leaving only my son from the original four.

He's sorry the others could not stick with it, but is having the time of his life and would not consider dropping. I hope he keeps that attitude....

CMM

It's interesting, but none of the patrols in my son's troop have chosen traditional names. After two rounds of patrol formation, it's obvious that they pick names for how they sound to others, not to themselves. Samples include:

Starfoxes

Crimson Red Permanent Assurance

Mixed Berry Fruit Cup

and so on

The only name that I was not sure of was one that named it after the Scoutmaster. The patrol name is "The Mr. P----- Experience Patrol." Can't say why it disturbs me to name a patrol after an active leader, but it just does. But I let it go.

Now whether we have patrols that really do anything other make names is another topic......

CMM

Great ceremony. I'll file it for future use.

To those scouters who find things like this embarrassing:

I've been to your meetings and seen your ceremonies. Can't say I remember much from them because they are rather pedestrian. But put a ceremony like this together and Scouts and parents will remember it.

As a former Cubmaster I put on many a crown, headdress, scarf and eye patch to hand out awards to make some Scout's experience memorable. And I've been to those other units, Troop and Pack, who did not do this. They are just not that memorable. My son's Scoutmaster was of that ilk and it took a little convincing to get him to agree just to announce rank awards and shake the Scout's hands as they advance. But after doing it a couple of times, It's clear that the Scouts really appreciate it. Now to get him to the next step of actually thinking of ceremonies....

So go ahead and read a little Shakespeare. Put your ego in your pocket and concentrate on making a memory for a Scout. He'll appreciate it.

CMM

Oh yeah, its rant time, baby.

I find it hard to believe that any troop or crew would allow rampant texting and cell phones.

We tell our Scouts and we would tell our crew the same if we had one (we do have a large Senior Scout patrol and the rule applies to them), is that texting and cell phones are not allowed on outings or meetings. Why allow it? Are they in business and need to talk to someone to prevent Wall Street from failing and the apocalypse from happening? I doubt it. Would I allow a Scout who was homesick to call his parents or friends and talk to them? Absolutely not.

I am a technophile. I always have my cell phone with me and use it to text for work, scan the web, and read e-docs and e-books. But when I go on a Scout outing, I turn it off. I keep it in my pack for emergencies, but otherwise it stays out of sight and I spend time with the group. If I am on call for work, or need to monitor a work situation, I excuse myself and take breaks away from the group to make those contacts in very brief periods. But I dont expect that many youth fall into that category.

Apple, Napster, and others have done an amazing job convincing us all that we have to be plugged in and listening to MP3s the whole time we are outside. Have you ever sat on a bus (I ride BART) and seen 20 people plugged in and off in their own little worlds? Walking trails or riding bikes with earphones and just oblivious to the world around them? Isnt that sort of checking out from their environment part of what we are trying to avoid? Dont buy into the commercials. Portable radios and players have been around for 40 years! It only started becoming acceptable when these companies started trying to convince us that this was cool and we had to be plugged in 24/7. Decide for yourself what is right. Just because my 9-year old daughter likes Abercrombie and Fitch does not give her the right to dress like a sex object. But that s what they sell. I dont have to buy it.

I have the same opinion of large RVs pulling into campgrounds with their microwave/TV/shower/DVD player/etc. Why did they even leave their house?

Constant texting or phones is a bored reaction. I find that most youth look to texting as a bored response, like eating or watching TV. They do not have something occupying their mind, so they look to check out. Are you bored? I have a deck of cards here, lets deal a couple of hands. Got a knife? Lets whittle. Got rope or lace, lets weave a lanyard. Cant sit? Lets hike.

Bored at night, lets tell stories or sing songs. Get the picture? We fight homesickness by taking their minds off of it and we do the same with electronic leashes. I allow board games in down time. Why? Because it requires conversation and social interaction. Texting and MP3s do not.

Are you at an event where e-mail is allowed and provided for (like Jamboree) go ahead, but limit the time and exposure.

The reason I give the youth for this restriction? Its simply not allowed.

Why? Because I value my time with you and dont want to share it with an LCD screen.

If thats not enough for the youth, then next time they can stay at home. I know that I will never find the solid gold reason that will convince everyone and I dont try. Sounds like that is what some folks are looking for.

Last month, during award presentations at a Court of Honor, I walked across the aisle to two scouts who were sitting and texting and whispered 3 options to them- turn it off, give it to me, or leave the building. There were no why discussions involved and they understood the options and turned them off.

And for Venture crews, sure you make the rules, but we provide the guidelines for those rules. Consider this a guideline.

.whew.rant ended..

(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Mike)

Wow.

My Council just started accepting applications at the end of January and the fee is set at $3,800.

Same here. Signed up in January, paid the $100 bucks, and got a letter and patch. The letter said wear the patch and we'll let you know later about staff.

Nothing yet.

I am on Facebook. I am also in my neighborhood, my home, my church and elsewhere. I never know when I am going to run into a Scouting family or other group- I also serve as President of the Swim Team and am active on Church committees and have been a school PFC president. My actions in public are always on display.

Am I a saint? Heck no, I have TWO closets full of skeletons. But a number of years ago as my involvement increased in outside groups, I noticed that my actions were observed by others whether I liked it or not. If I did something that hurt the reputation of one my groups, I would expect them to take action against me (censure, warnings, suspension, etc).

I dont live my own world, I share it with others. If I want to go out and kick up my heels and howl at the moon, I have a duck club where I can do that. In the world I share with others, I act as I would have others act.

Citizenship is part of being a Scout. What you say on the internet is no different than writing it on paper and posting it on a bulletin board in a public place. Come to think of it, its the same as wearing it taped to the front of your shirt.

Now we all make mistakes and youth is about making errors and learning from your errors. If I saw driving actions or facebook pages like was described here, I would talk to the youth, remind them about their oath and law and talk about other appropriate, more private outlets for their exuberance. I would give them the opportunity to correct their ways.

And if they disagreed, then you bet I would be at their BOR and recommending that they be delayed advancement until they can act like a Scout.

CMM

It's two things and I dealt with this a couple of years back.

Our Pack does a big Blue and Gold Arrow of Light ceremony with native american headresses, drums and bells. The boys receive their Arrow of Light and are recognized as graduating from the Pack. Then the boys go back for desert with theri dens and families while a bridge is set up for crossover. The two ceremonies are separate and distinct. Those boys who are crossing over are then called up along with the selected troops. Webelos who are not crossing over stay with their family.

One year I had a family decide not to move on. The boy still wanted to cross over, I told him that when he picks a troop we will be happy to have him come back to a Pack meeting to cross over or we will go to his selected troop and hold a cross over ceremony. Never got a call back.

Let's remember that one of the purposes of Cub Scouting is Preparation for Boy Scouts. It is right to recognize those that choose to stay in the program.

CMM

Forgot to mention- I also blow a mean duck call. :-)

CMM

Bugling was my very first merit badge earned. My counselor made us play all the calls from memory and play them WELL. At our Courts of Honor, we had a bugler as part of the ceremony. I also served at summer camp as a bugler for the camp for several weeks over the years.

Position of Responsibility? you bet. At camp, I had to be up early and down to the assembly meadow to blow reveille in the morning, to the colors, all mess calls, retreat, tattoo, taps, etc. Camp time was based upon the bugle calls.

Fast forward from the 70s and early 80s to 2008-

Camporee does not have a bugler. COHs don't have a bugler. Troops don't have a bugler. Camps play an audio tape, not a live bugle.

In the last four years, the only live bugle I have heard is at Woodbadge and NCS.

I am a Bugling MB Counselor now. I own two trumpets and two bugles and have not had a single taker.

I miss this part of Scouting. My kids hear bugles play Taps at Veterans Day and Memorial Day ceremonies and I'm bummed that they are starting to associate it with someone dying and not as a meaningful ceremonial device.

Uz2b, any music store or repair shop can fix that bugle. My trumpets and bugles have been soldered repeatedly due to fumble fingers.

Now how about a forum on the relative merits of a Bb bugle verses a C or F bugle?

CMM

Heres an advancement question for you all-

My sons new to his troop. The troop uses the new boy program. The boys are placed in new boy patrols with a troop guide for the first year. They are guided through the program with the goal of making first class at the end of the first year.

Since February, my son earned Scout in April, Tenderfoot in June and Second Class in September. But the troop only hands out advancement at Courts Of Honor held at specific times of the year.. As a result, my son received his Scout badge in June at the first Court of Honor (Tenderfoot was earned later that month) and at the next court of honor in two weeks will receive his Second Class. He will never have had a chance to wear his Tenderfoot or identify himself as one. He is not alone in this- other boys never really identify at the different ranks because they never wear the badge. Another boy in the troop will go from wearing the Scout badge to wearing First Class, never having the chance to wear the other ranks he earned.

As a result, a high proportion of the boys in the troop are mot wearing the rank they should be wearing.

Maybe Im blowing this out of proportion but it seems to me that each rank should be awarded to the scout and he should have the opportunity to be recognized at each level and wear the rank at that level, not just Johnny earned three ranks in the last six months- congratulations Johnny.

Now I believe that rank should be awarded as part of a ceremony and just going out and buying a badge to sew on between COHs is not the way to go either.

How do others handle this? Do you do rank ceremonies between COHs for this purpose? DO you just let them go? Do you do mo COHs to help with this issue at the lower ranks?

Thanks

CMM

When am I planning on changing to the new uniform?

Right away.

As a Commissioner it is important to set the example. The new uniforms are not cheap, but this forum gave me the benefit of finding out a few months in advance so I could save my money for this purchase.

It will mean a week's worth of evenings re-sewing badges after work and the kids go to bed, but that's a small drop in the bucket of time spent doing other things.

There are plenty of adults wearing the old uniform. They will wave their hand and say it's too expensive while holding a $4.00 latte. But they will still be the same leader.

I'll just be the same leader in a new uniform.

CMM

I use badge magic to place a patch properly when lins will not do, then hand sew it in place. I have removed badges and followed the instructions for adhesive removal as shown on the badge magic website and it works as promised.

Taking badges to tailors to sew them on? I don't consider myself an oldster but as a Scout it was expected that we sew our own uniforms. Matter of fact, at the old Troop Leader Development course in the late 70s, when you showed up, you were given a patch and expected to sew it onto your uniform for that week of camp.

Has anyone heard about embroidering services to combine veteran years with unit numbers in the updated colors?

CMM

Int he past we have had something similar. A cub scout wanted to build a car with his father but was not going to be at the derby due to an out of town soccer tournament.

Since the Cub wanted to buld a car, we decided not to deprive him. The car was built and registered in his absence. It was raced and competed for design awards but was not allowed to win a speed trophy.

We had no compaints from his den or parents.

CMM

Yes we have a set of by-laws. It sets out the following:

Requirements for leadership positions

How to fill an empty leader position

What the pack provides for each boy

What dues covers

The uniforming expectation

Behavior guidelines and diciplinary procedures

I found a lot online when I wrote them as one of my Woodbadge tickets. You can check out the docuemtn at our website,

http://www.cubpack420.org

CMM

We give plaques to den leaders and certificates to committee members at the Pack Graduation in June. The plaques run about $10 each and the certificates are about $2. Total cost is about 60-70 dollars. May seem like a lot but we feel that the uniformed leaders are worth it.