Cubmaster Jerry

Is this the same unit that is selling beer at the local fair? Just curious.

The following comments are made with the understanding that I know little about funding a Troop (I'm a Pack guy )

"$18,000.00.Does seem like a lot of money for a Scout Troop, but paying to insure and maintain all the things they have isn't cheap and maybe the money is earmarked for the next big thing that they aim to buy?"

Like What?!? A new fleet of trailers to haul their goods in? How about a new Chevy Silvarado to pull their trailer?

At what point does a non profit organization start to become in danger of losing not for profit status? If you have 18 thou in the bank, why do they need more?

My question as well. Wouldn't it be feasible to state that, after purchasing some niceties (and I don't mean a canoe for each Patrol and a Super Scout 3000 Wonder Tent for each boy) and paying expenses that fund the program (camps, awards, etc) the Unit fund should be at a minimal level at the time the next fund raiser arrives? That minimal level should be an amount that would be used to complement the next fund raiser should it fall short to which the Unit would then find it difficult to fund a basic program for the next year. "Sorry, no 5-course meals at each Court of Honor this year. Our fund raiser fell short and we had to dip into our buffer account."

A program doesn't exist without internal funding, whether it is from dues or fund raisers. As unfortunate as it may be, making fund raising mandatory may be a necessity to ensure a quality program. There are numerous ways to do this without pressuring the parents. In the case of your unit, forcing parents to supplement an already bloated account is out of line and borders on greed as far as I am concerned.

Jerry

One short question - What should we at the unit level expect from Council/District?

Seems simple enough but I know it's not. This year, I am finding myself (willingly) getting more involved in activities at the district level - Day Camp Program Director, District Training Staff, helping the UC start up a new unit, and working to split my unit. It has got me thinking more of what assistance I should expect at the unit level from the district or council, not just with those particular items but in general. For example:

- Leadership and guidance. Training is one thing but many units look to district/council for assistance in dealing with certain situations such as leaders who steal funds or who exhibit actions that could potentially harm children. Council and district pretty much remain hands off and the unit is left searching for answers on their own.

- Abandoning units. Sometimes the easy road leads to forming a new unit rather than saving an existing one. By doing so, they are marking the current program as dead and would rather allow it to sink with all aboard than try to save it.

- Unit Operation. For every Scout unit there is, there are just as many ways of operating one. Now, I know that each unit may have a way of operating that works well for them but shouldn't there be at least some guidelines from Council or even District that would fall under the heading "What works best"? This would go a long way in helping units stay financially afloat or maintain necessary leadership.

- The Eye of Mordor. Ok, may not the evil connotation that brings but shouldn't council or district keep more of a watch over the units? Making sure they follow the program properly, have necessary leadership, and things like camping without BALOO trained leaders, etc? When I first became involved in scouting, half of the leaders on the Pack roster were leaders who had left 1-2 years earlier. Council never knew. The unit I am helping to get off the ground now "looks good on paper".

I realize these would require much more manpower and money than is currently available but shouldn't it be council's responsibility to make sure the ideals, morals, and intentions of scouting are being followed? Isn't it conceivable that a unit could pretty much do whatever they wanted and get away with it without Council or District ever knowing?

Maybe I am looking for Council and District to bring home the whole pig and not just the bacon.

Jerry

I'd have to agree with Semp in that the boy may be back if the underlying situation gets better. Stay in touch with him, especially since you felt that he was one of your core scouts. You will probably see him at Pack meetings at least. Ask how he is doing and let him know that you'd like to seem him in the Den again. Hopefully you will.

Jerry

"Council didnt just step in and take over as some here on the forum might expect. In general, Council lets the units deal with unit business and more or less has to be dragged in farther,"

As unfortunate as it is, this is exactly what I have experienced and understand from others when looking to council for guidance. Council should be there for units to offer that guidance or assistance in a wide array of issues that units face and that just isn't available. Units are often left to fend for themselves. But I think that is for another thread...

Great suggestion by Eagledad for a possible resolution. Good luck.

Jerry

Edited portion:

Ok, I created that other thread...

Expectations from Council - Fending for Ourselves(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

Good points Eamonn. I will echo the others concerns that hopefully your unit will continue on after your service. Hopefully there are others lurking in the shadows.

However, if I remember, you have a VERY small unit and a VERY small pool of youth, don't you. Sounds like a tough battle for your CO. I commend you and your committee on keeping such a small unit in a small community going. Has the idea of folding been presented to the parents who will remain? What say they?

And one note on the fact that the CO owns everything. I have heard (not seen in practice) where leaders purchase everything themselves then "loan" it to the unit. But as EagleInKY states, most COs don't have a clue that they own the assets.

I, too, will echo FScouter. Do it now. We all admire your enthusiasm and concern for putting on a quality program. Don't let this drag on. As indicated here already, you will get burned out and boys will be lost. Since you know the boys best, work with the CM to divide the boys up in the best manner.

Good luck!

Jerry

Have you or your CC sat down with this parent and discussed the options and the causes for the problem? I would assume that the overbearing parent and his presumed uninvited older son are probably not aware of the seriousness of the problems they are causing and their long reaching effects. They probably see what they are doing as being ok. However, 4 boys and 1 DL already gone because of one family. It should be clear to them what the Pack's goals are. Not letting one spoil it for many.

And, as others have stated, don't let this initial welcome to the "Coolest Job In The Pack" (CM) scar you. It is much better.

Good luck,

Jerry

WHAT!!?!?!?!

I...don't even know what to say.

Do the logical thing. Go with your instincts. There is absolutely NOTHING that is right about any of what happened.

Good luck.

FScouter and rpushies hit the nail on the head. Perhaps there was some misconception that was passed on from the last CM as to the measure of responsibility that a CM has and his role in the Pack?

Hopefully it is more of a misunderstanding rather than an abrasive situation.

Good luck!

Jerry

I have returned from the battle field and it would seem like we won the battle. Next is the War.

Out of 16, 6 showed up. From that 6 it looks like we are going to get a CC, CM, Treasurer, and a Secretary! Not bad. And the gleam in their eye and excitement in their voices tells me I am really honing my skills as a salesman!

Seriously though, the key was, and this is what I tell all of my prospective leaders, is that "You are not alone". My CC was there along with me and we both told all of them that we will hold their hand until they are comfortable if that is what is necessary so they won't fail.

I also told each of them not to commit to anything if they can't give what it takes. I would rather them not sign up than do so and quit a month later or put forth minimal effort.

So, we have given them the initial push. No Pack meeting for them in Oct. They are coming to ours to get a better feel of how to present one. They all have also been invited to our next committee meeting for the same reasons. And they have a planning meeting set up a week after that.

All of them were excited. Lots of "I can do that", "My dad is a... and can help with...", etc. One of the parents in attendance tonight was "scarred" by past efforts of starting a Pack there and she noted positive differences between tonight's results and the reasons for past failures.

Crossing the fingers....

And, I just placed my fundraiser form on the break room table at work. Hoping for good sales numbers so I don't have to badger my family and relatives more than twice this year.

I am sure I am not cheating my son out of an opportunity to learn what being Thrify is. He hears his mother and I enough talking about how we have to save money for this or that because we can't afford to buy on a whim. He already understands the art of saving, bargin shopping, and otherwise not wasting money or resources. Right now he is saving for a guitar and accumulating reading hours so he can earn a ticket to the ball game for next year.

He's 9 and I think he'll be ok.

Well, well. It seems as if a few (many) of your Troop leaders have vision that is clouded by money.

While I still see nothing wrong with participating in such an event, as long as the scouting affiliation is not made AND not billed as a scouting (family???) event from within the troop, it certainly seems someone is misdirected. And forcing one to participate isn't conducive to a happy troop.

No uniformed leaders? While not an atrocity (but close) it does form a representation of the commitment one has in the organization and Scouting.

And, nldscout, I believe $8000 IS a lot when it is not being spent appropriately. I doesn't sound like they are funding trips to Philmont here. It sounds like a case of The Troop with the most toys and money in the coffer wins.

Jerry

Here are a couple of sites that, while not affiliated with the BSA, state the grade-to-rank relationship in Scouting. It's not "official" though.

I would agree with Carol. Why stretch the rules when other opportunities exist?

What is currently the accepted practice in your unit? For example, in mine, our cut off is May Crossover. Anything after that goes toward the new rank, all before that can not be applied to the new rank.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/cub-scouts/bear-scouts.asp

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/intro.html

Well, not in its entirety. But I am headed off today to help my UC bring the scouting program in my neighboring community up from the ashes. I have mentioned this unit before. This is at least the third attempt at starting a Pack in this community. Leadership has been and still is the problem.

They currently have 16 boys signed up and are still in need of a Wolf and Bear leader as well as a CC and CM.

Time to bring the calvary in and rally the troops. Wish me luck!

Jerry

We use many of those same tactics that you do, cc329. They do work quite well.

I think that the key to this the whole process is a well-managed inspection process. If the rules are clear and published for all, the inspection process should be cut and dry. All of your rule-benders should be turned away. Now, that doesn't do much for those parents who don't do a little research to figure out how to make the car leagally roll faster. But you would hope that those are the ones who show up at the clinics.

re: scotiacat's last post. Each year, Anheuser-Busch rally's its employees for an entire month to donate to "Friends of Scouting". The money collected internally through this effort is surpassed only by their annual collections for...The United Way.

Using the words "beer" and "scouts" in the same sentance offers more negative connotations than positive. However, remember that the boys aren't selling the beer and aren't even in the same booth. And no promotion of Scouts takes place. There really is no problem with this. I would be more concerned with a few other things:

1. The leader/parent drinking a beer in front of the boys at 10a.m. Not a good image for the scouts.

2. $8000. That is A LOT of money for an annual program. You already answered my question about what the money was used for. Now, I ask this - don't you think that is a bit (a lot) excessive? Isn't there better use for much of that money than buying "a fleet of kayaks and canoes, a portable climbing wall also mounted on a trailer" and presumably other niceties that were bought but probably weren't needed only because of the extra money you had? It would also seem to me that those parents who are afraid of losing the "gold mine" might be a bit greedy.

3. Fundraising tactics. This may be a bit off topic but what difference does it make where the money comes from (as long as it is legal)? What should we expect the boys to get out of fundraising anyway, besides a better program? A sense of having to work to support something? Developing communication skills through the repeated use of a memorized sales pitch? Maybe they shouldn't even be aware of the need to raise funds at all.

When I first became CM, one of the first things I did was stop the practice of having 50/50 raffles at Pack meetings. Other than squeezing more money from parents, I felt that having a gambling related activity at a Pack Meeting was wrong. I think the defining issue should be whether activities of this nature are associated with scouts. This particular one that mdeckerz unit participates in does not seem to be.

Jerry

And, I too know of know one that is fooled by the "Friends of " label.(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

"Friends of the Troop" idea is designed to be a group that is not affiliated with the BSA. This would prevent the need for the Unit Money Earning Application. "Friends of the Troop" would essentially be considered a third party group donating money to the Troop. Even though the members of the third party happen to be leaders as long as there is no connection between the fund raiser and the unit (or BSA), there shouldn't be a problem.

And I have to add that I think those that I speak of in my last post are the overwhelming minority. I think a bigger issue might be that a boy doesn't have enough help. That the adult doesn't even try to figure out how to make a car legally faster.

There might be more cars on the track that are significantly slower than those that are significanly faster.

If a boy knows that a square knot really isn't square, then he might be a Cub Scout

cc329, I think you answered for yourself, the question in your first paragraph. I have seen many boys leave crying, not because they didn't leave with something but because their car didn't do well. When paired up against cars that are adult built, the field is then skewed.

The idea isn't for the Cub to do ALL the work himself. It is intended to be a parent/son experience. But when you are running a race and hear parents scream for "their car" while their scout is off somewhere else, there is a problem. When the boy is no where to be found at check-in and doesn't have a clue how the car was put together, much less that there really IS weight added to the car, there is a problem. And what is that dry graphite for anyway?

It is a tricky situation. At the very least, we expect that the boy can't cut the car. He will also probably need help putting those wheels on. However, he can paint it and add things to the body all by himself.

Living vicariously should equate to partipating, not taking over the project.

Jerry

While the easy answer is to put them in a W1 den, I am not sure that is the best thing. Keep in mind that a boy can't earn his AOL before his Webelos Badge. It doesn't mean that he can't work on it.

I would place them in the W2 den. Explain to each boy and their parents the situation. You may find that the boys have enough intitative and are excited enough to work on the Badge requirements at home and, thus graduate with the rest of the Den with both the badge and AOL. If the boy needs more time, they have until May. As CM, I would then take those two boys and lead them for the months of Mar - May, working to finish up any requirements for the Badge or AOL.

However, if these boys have neither the badge or AOL in Feb and still wish to graduate with the rest of the Den rather than stick it out until May, that is fine.

Jerry

Well, this doesn't qualify as a blunder and I don't easily get embarassed but none-the-less....

Twas the Pack Meeting before Christmas and the Cubmaster had planned a little reading of The Night Before Christmas. In addition to the reading, there were actors, played by scouts and me, the ACM, acting out parts in the story. There was no rehearsal so the actions had to be on queue with the story and off the cuff. The CM had a few props and costumes for each of us. The boys played parts such as Ma, Pa, & the kids. We brought in someone to play Santa, and I played the part of....the Sugar Plum Fairy. Complete with pink leotard and tutu. The CM's girlfriend managed to make one big enough to fit me.

And naturally, I didn't know anything about my part until I arrived for the Pack Meeting. But I was happy to do it. For the enjoyment of the boys....

There are pictures somewhere....

good points Eamonn

Typically (and I think it even states so in the kit's rules) ONLY the stock wheels and axles that are included in the kit can be used. To combat the issue with the wheels you describe, light sanding of the axles is allowed. Also, dry graphite is the only thing allowed as lubricant on the axles and wheels. No wet lubricant.

There is always a few people that we fail at the inspection table because they don't pay attention to rules and have to change their wheels and/or axles. This is particularly painful for those who glued their axles (which you should do!)

Also, as redfox does, we also do not return cars after inspection.

Jerry

Well, this is not an answer to your problem. Just an extension of it. While I can't say that I have seen the increased success of Leader's son's cars over non-leader's son's cars, there is certainly a problem with too much parental help. Annual parental comments that begin with "You won't believe how much time I spent....." and fathers who won't even let thier son touch the car on race day are common.

We hold a PWD car building session at the local firehouse for who ever needs help cutting and shaping the cars. Boys can also decorate during this time. However, the "problem" parents don't show up for this. Perhaps if we made it necessary for all cars to be constructed at this session (well, there would have to be more than one) AND turned in there, that might help. But that would require a lot of time on the part of the PWD organizers.

We also make the boys carry their own cars to check in. Having strict inspection requirements are also necessary to prevent any intentional advantages.

Looking forward to others success stories.

Jerry